Armageddon-Real!! (page 2)

Farkel

prop,

: But it is worth examining Armageddon in the context of the Bible.

Great. Using shit to prove shit. That makes perfect sense to me.

Farkel

hawkaw

Farkel,

You have a special way with the English language.

hawk

proplog2

Realist:

I don't believe the Bible is "God's Word". I don't believe "God/god/gods" ever communicated with humans.

I believe it contains information that can aid human survival and it is from a non-earthly though non-miraculous source.

proplog2

Farkel:

I understand that where you are in YOUR life what you wrote makes perfect sense to YOU.

Farkel

Hawk,

: You have a special way with the English language.

Is this bad? I mean, after all, that's the only language I have to communicate with!

Farkel

SYN

Now that was quite a post, PropLog. Interesting, even though it redlined my bogosity meter

What is Armageddon? It is easy to ridicule the idea of some final showdown between the forces of good and evil.

You do not understand. Good and evil are very old-fashioned, indeed, obsolete concepts! Today we are faced with something far worse than "evil". It's called the MULTI-NATIONAL CORPORATION. Inside the CORPORATION, human rights are squandered and trod upon, people are turned into hamsters in wheels. And here you go on spouting off about "Armageddon"! Can't you see that we are in the middle of a "spiritual" Armageddon already?

But it is worth examining Armageddon in the context of the Bible. The entertainment industry has made quite a bit of money off of the idea of Armageddon as some great natural disaster that destroys life on Earth.

You see, we don't need Jehover to kill everybody on Earth but for 0.1% of the population. We're terribly good at killing off people, us humans! We could do it without Jehover lifting a single, stupendous finger!

The Bible portrays Armageddon as a grand intervention in human affairs that preserves human society by changing its direction. The Watchtower along with other religions, including primitive Christianity have projected onto this event their own need for vengeance against those who have persecuted them. When looked at carefully Armageddon is a painful though necessary crisis in the evolution of human society.

Nope, Armageddon is not an evolution anymore than a genocide is an evolution. Obviously, the Big A makes genocide look pretty charming and harmless.

Life has evolved through selfishness. But there are two kinds of selfishness. Short term selfishness and long term selfishness. Short term selfishness is what we like to call "sin". Sin is not so much "original" as it is intrinsic. The lower animals don't sin because they can't anticipate alternative futures. Primates seem
to do this to some extent. Humans do this all the time. What is amazing is the way the Bible deals with this problem. How is man going to survive his own selfishness? The Bible gives us a history of the futile struggles of a single Nation to survive. Israel does all the things Nations typically do to stay alive. It asks for a King. It demands central worship at its temple. It kills the pagans that surround them. It forces its God and worship on other nations.

Surprisingly enough, you happened to be born in a nation that was affected by this process, which is why you are a Christian. If you'd been born in Pakistan, you'd undoubtably be a practising Muslim. Anyway, my Ghod can beat up your Ghod!

Christ comes at a point in history where the old world of loosely connected regional nations was in the process of being integrated into super empires that were able to bestow advantages in the form of citizenship to individuals all over the world. The Romans built 50,000 miles of roads to connect its colonies. With the break down of families, clans, and tribes the Romans filled the void by granting citizenship, and along with that bread and legal protection. Conquered nations started to lose their identity along with their religions. The Jews like other nations that refused to integrate with the world were crushed along with their temple. Religion too had to have an international appeal if it wanted to continue to exist. Jesus promoted a unity based on brotherhood of man and surrender of personal interests for the benefit of the many. Jesus spoke about a citizenship in a heavenly realm in contrast to citizenship in human governments.

It's so "deep"!

What is the significance of this? The Bible, although clearly a human production, is a record of this social evolution. The theme is clearly presented that humans are destined to fail if they continue on their course.

Hell, we might even "fail" by accident! If some scientist were to accidently release an incurable experimental genemodded supervirus during his lunch break tomorrow, would Ghod save us? Define failure?

The formation of ever greater empires has not unified humans. It has not changed the local nations from
fighting each other. As super-national groups weaken the local battles resume. Adding to human terror is the competition between various super-national empires and the development of weapons of mass destruction. Christianity, rather than promoting the ideal of a higher citizenship and world-wide brother hood has proven false to its founder and joined in the various struggles for domination. Jehovah's Witnesses, although not perfect, have achieved something that no other religion has achieved. They have refused to
participate in this worlds wars and politics. Instead they have chosen to develop an alternative citizenship and remain neutral and prepared for intervention from the sky.

From the sky eh? Your thinking appears to conform with standard Judeo-Christian concepts about the "location" of Ghod, even though according to your definition of Ghod, he cannot have a location. Good grief!

Sure there is a lot of wackiness among JW's. For a culture to form it needs boundaries.

Candidate for Understatement Of The Month Award right there!

The objective is to be IN the world though not PART of the world.

Impossible. There is no such thing as a homogenous culture in the midst of others. Pity the Dubs seem to be convinced that it's a workeable idea, tho.

Various Christian groups have isolated themselves from the world by placing themselves OUT of the world on various communes ie Mennonites etc.. JW's have not done this.

See above.

They are IN the world yet because of various - and admittedly strange- rules they have kept up a boundary that has allowed their culture to evolve a people who have exemplary love for each other.

AHAHAHAHA! Whatever! Where you ever a Dub? You'll know that there is little "love" (be it agape, porneia, or whatever you want to call it) in Dubland. People "love" each other because they have to! There's no two ways about it. Most "worldly" people I know and am friendly with are a hundred times more "loving" than the Dubs! To be "loved" as a Dub you have to have great FS hours, a brilliant track record, and a HIGH STATUS IN THE CONGREGATION. Period.

Even the JW blood policy - which I find wrong - has served to cement their bond to one another. The blood policy as a condition of membership has forced each individual to come to terms with the idea that love sometimes means the sacrifice of ones own life. If life were not actually lost occasionally by adherence to this policy it would be a meaningless exercise. Instead, you have an organization of 6,000,000 people who are willing to die for their beliefs.

This is the great tragedy of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, a book-publishing company that has become so inflated with greed that it requires Assimilated hive-mind components to be willing to die for the beliefs it can change without notice and without dissent.

The Bible says that the world will eventually get to the point described at Luke 21:25 "on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the wa out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation, while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth." This is the prelude
to Armageddon. The book of Daniel, whenever it was written, foretells a time when the struggle for world domination will be ended by a Kingdom set up by God.

Which Ghod? (My Ghod could probably beat up your Ghod) But getting back to the point, I don't see this as a realistic scenario. Are you aware of Occam's Razor? "The simplest solution is usually the correct one". The simplest "solution" to the present scenario is the death of mankind at our OWN hands, not the hands of some supernatural entity. We're sitting on a powder-keg, baby, and there's nothing Ghod can do about it, not matter how much He'd like to. After all, He hasn't seemed to be paying much attention to us recently. Perhaps He's on vacation in the Pleiades System. Or you could just go for the Dub explanation of Ghod's telling absence, they insist that He's around, just "invisible". Apparently.

Dan 2:44 "It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite." Very little of all the things modern science and technology promises will succeed until human effort can be freed from the issue of world domination. Power plants that bring electricity to millions of homes are wiped out in seconds during war. Brilliant researchers are side-lined from their work by war or economic failure. The issue of world dominance is not a trivial matter. If it isn't settled mankind is doomed.

The problem with all of this speculation is your ignorance of factors which are likely to become very real contributors to the dissolution of the human race in general, possibly within our lifetime. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not predicting the end of the world like you. What I am predicting is something that is fairly obvious to anyone with the simplest grasp of algebra. Computer power has been increasing at an exponential rate since World War II. This is not to say that it will stick to it's current rate of increase. In fact, chances are that it will soon accelerate even more. Remember, humans no longer build computers. Computers build computers. No human being can fully comprehend the incredibly complexity of a modern-day microprocessor. Machines assemble our computers.

You see, we have already gotten the ball rolling, and it will soon become impossible to stop. Once the scientist perfect femtobots and other Very Small Scale Robotics devices, the computers will begin to take on a life of their own. The rate of increase of computing power will then be bound only by the speed of the computers, which is already increasing exponentially.

Git it?

Armageddon is a quaint concept that entirely ignores the next step in human evolution. That step is called Singularity. Singularity will come pretty soon, and it will be the day that the exponential graph of computing power rockets into unknowable zones of power, when the computers become so powerful that we will no longer be capable of fully understanding them.

Some have said that this is evidence that humanity is creating the missing Ghod it seems to need so much, and still others believe that it is the simple push of Gaia, who they say has been driving evolution all along. Still others contend that without liberating ourselves from our carbon-based bodies we will never explore the stars, and that this step is neccessary for the exploration of space.

The issue of who will finally rule the whole earth is the central issue of the thousands of words of the Bible written over thousands of years.

When Singularity comes, no one will "rule" the Earth. Rulership will be as useless as democracy in a beehive.

In Daniel the final struggle comes down to the struggle between the King of the North and the King of the South. Most of the 20th century - after World War II -has been a conflict between two major powers the Soviet Union and the USA. All the countries of the earth were grouped in one or the other camp. Even so-called neutral nations were not really neutral but were countries that would play these countries against one another for their own advantage. At the end the King of the South pushes the King of the North. It is clear that the USA has a policy of world dominance both economically and militarily. Consider this quote:
"Geopolitics after World War II was at its core about limiting the reach of the Soviet Union. That goal became so fundamental to American diplomacy that policy operated almost reflexively and provided a dependable calculus of American national interest. Peripheral conflicts were deemed significant mainly on the basis of whether they helped or harmed the Soviet Union. Our ostensible commitment to liberal capitalist democracy could be subordinated to accommodate fairly nasty right-wing regimes (Chile, El Salvador, S. Africa) and even wayward communist ones (Yugoslavia, China, Cambodia) so long as they blocked Soviet expansionism." The End of Laissez-Faire, Robert Kuttner, Alfred A. Knopf 1991
When the Soviet Union pulled out of Eastern Europe, allowing the unifying of Germany it was done with an understanding between Gorbachev and Bush that Nato would NOT expand into those areas. Six years after the cold war ended the USA led the effort to get Poland, Hungary and Czech Republic into NATO. Is this pushing or not? The United States ignored the world peace organization of the United Nations and led NATO into a military aggression against Serbia to settle what was really an internal matter to the
Serbians. This infuriated Russia. Soon NATO is going to include the Baltic states. Russia is bound to react. You can't ignore the implications of the book of Daniel.

Nor can you ignore the implications of our own technology.

Revelation portrays the final battle for world domination as a conflict between The Wild Beast and a Wealthy entity called Babylon The Great. The Harlot rides the Wild Beast. The Wild beast destroys the Harlot and dominates the World. By the way - is it just coincidental that the Wild Beast experiences a death and re- birth as a military force in the world?

There will be no more. Singularity is ubiquitous and all-encompassing. Dissent will not only be meaningless, it will cease to exist. Such is the true meaning of Singularity.

Armageddon is NOT the final battle between human powers. It is an intervention in human affairs that finally stops the struggle.

Why do you need a Ghod to intervene in human affairs? This is a limited viewpoint.

It is an intervention that is carried out for the salvation of the human race.

Would you try to save a baby from becoming an adult? Obviously not. So why would Ghod want to save us from Singularity?

It is not to be feared but rather welcomed.

Yes, of course!

The Watchtower portrays it as the FINAL judgement of billions of people.

They are wrong. Worse, they are misinformed.

This is wrong.

Finally we agree!

Final judgment is pictured by the "lake of fire".

A useful metaphor, very emotive. Quite cunning, actually.

The only thing thrown into the lake of fire were the Wild Beast and the False Prophet. These are political entities - NOT humans. Of course there will be great loss of life but not permanent loss. Verse 21 of Rev 19 says "But the rest were killed off with the LONG SWORD of the one seated on the horse ... And all the birds were filled from the fleshy parts of them"

Hehe, the good old Vulture Packs make an appearance

This grouping is described just prior to this in Rev 19:17,18 as kings, military commanders, strong men, freemen, slaves, small ones and great. These humans didn't get thrown into the lake of fire. They went to
Hades. Hades is described in Rev. 6:8 as being given authority to kill with a LONG SWORD.

More undigestable tidbits from an ancient book that should really only be considered as a dangerous curiousity.

It is not surprising to read about those who come out of Hades during the resurrection: Rev 20:12 "And I saw the dead, the GREAT AND THE SMALL...judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to THEIR deeds...they were judged INDIVIDUALLY according to their deeds." The final objective is to give everyone an opportunity to do right. This includes those who get killed in the battle of Armageddon. Only after this judgement period are any humans cast into the Lake of Fire and die a second time forever.

See above.

It appears that only a third of the earth will be the stage for this great battle. Rev 8:7 "a third of the earth was burned up". This is emphasized throughout Revelation chapter 8. It is probably the portion of the earth where Jehovah's Witnesses have completed their warning work. The preaching work is finished in the part of the world that has had the most complete witness.

That is a load of BS, if you ask me. Current "light" in Dubland insists that "this good news will be preached to all the inhabited nations of the Earth". Last time I checked, that was the "official" viewpoint.

This richest third of the world is the realm of Christendom and battleground for this worlds most devastating wars.

This is a bit like all those movies where the aliens always land in the United States. Note: This is not American-bashing, it's just that it seems rather odd for this to happen in EVERY MOVIE, when the US is only a small fraction of the total land-mass of Earth. Surely they'd land in other countries on occasion? Statistically, in fact, the aliens would land in the US quite rarely overall.

There is a hint at the limited destruction that takes place at Armageddon in the book of Daniel. Daniel 7:11b,12 "I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire (lake of fire?). BUT, as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and there was a lengthening in life given to them for a time and a season." It appears that some governments will be allowed to keep order for a period of time after Armageddon as theocratic rulership is gradually put in place. This process is further described in Dan 7:13,14 "there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming...And to him there were given rulership...that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve him." You may question whether these peoples, national
groups and languages are organized into governments but this is cleared up in verse 27 of chapter 7 "And the kingdom and the RULERSHIP and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an indefinitely lasting kingdom and ALL THE RULERSHIPS will serve and obey even them." There will have to be RULERSHIPS around if they are going to obey the holy ones.

This is where things really begin getting EXTREMELY bogus. Such bogosity is a rare find, even on a religiously-orientated board such as this one. Do you think these governments would just allow themselves to be turned into little Sheep for the "Theocratic Government"? It all seems to ephemeral. Singularity is a far more realistic future than this one, which appears to be spun from the stuff of dreams.

Let me summarize these points. Armageddon is not just a myth. No one knows what the future holds.

This is true. However, you do not know that an airplane heading towards a very large building will hit it, but you can make an educated guess about it. You are INTERPRETING something written in a very old book - I suggest you EXTRAPOLATE some simple exponential numbers instead, and you will see what I'm talking about. Go on, try it.

Armageddon is ONE possibility that must be considered. If humans cannot end their struggle for military dominance mankind is doomed.

Mankind is already doomed. This is not neccessarily a bad thing, unless we destroy ourselves before the fledgling Singularity has time to reach the Omega phase. Ouch.

There is nothing in the history of the world that would suggest any other destiny. Peace efforts have been feeble at best. The world is in a more dangerous situation than ever before.

There are still places where nothing has changed.

The Armageddon of the Bible does not result in the second death for those who die as a result. Armageddon victims will be resurrected and given a chance. NOT a second chance.. but a chance.
Only after the resurrection can people experience the SECOND death which is permanent. Armageddon will be REAL BIG. BUT it will not mean the destruction of everyone except the "holy ones". Those who remain separate through the end times will be amply rewarded. But others will not automatically be damned. The decreases in the increase of JW's indicates the preaching work is over.

Over, yes, but they won't give up for a very long time.

Other great nations, such as China, India, Moslem world, will remain and learn from the whole western experience.

Hopefully they will, yes.

Realist

ok so what exactly do you believe? how can you determine a date for armageddon (or WWIII) based on something that is not inspired?

SYN

Realist: Was that question for PropLog?

proplog2

SYN:

Why go to all that trouble. Didn't Farkel say about the same thing?

Your criticism is evidence that I didn't make my premise clear enough.

I am trying to show that you can't make a solid case that the Bible's discussion of Armageddon, Last days etc. means the total destruction of ALL government and authority on earth. Nor is it the everlasting destruction of billions of people. The Watchtower is in error.

My interpretation allows for a "limited" witness work, a limited though far reaching destruction of major world players. Also it explains how being a "chosen" people doesn't mean a group is perfect but simply that they become a "special case" to prove a point and establish a basis for the future.

I believe in something less powerful than an omnipotent being. There may be a non-intervention policy that prevents wiser societies from intervening unless it endangers the existence of an intelligent species.

Coming face to face with annhilation may be the only way cooperation can be embedded in our collective unconscious.

SYN

SO, you just toss my entire (long) post outta the window?

Geesh.

Remind me not to write you a War & Peace post again!

At least refute my main points! (Without using the Bible)

Armageddon-Real!!

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