The Germans have "tumbled to this" and are working on it. Hope they are in time.
Mustang
Are WE Going To War?
by Perry 19 Replies latest jw friends
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Defender
Perry you said:
"Still, Jews persisted in Jerusalem , even numbering around 40,000 by the turn of the 20th century, while arabs numbered only around 7000. If Jerusalem was so damn holy to them, why werent there more of them there?
The reality is that the Arabs poured into Israel after the 1967 war..."
I do not know where are you getting your facts from; here are a couple of tables of population of Palestine from a United Nations University study. Hope that will give you an indication of how much moslem as well as Christian arabs vs Jewish population were living in Palestine at the time and how much immigrants came into Palestine.
Table 2.4 Population of Palestine, 1922-1942 a,b
Year Total Moslems Jews Christians Others (No.) (%) (No.) (%) (No.) (%) (No.) (%) 1922 Census 752,048 589,177 78.34 83,790 11.14 71,464 9.50 7,617 1.01 1931 Census 1,033,314 759,700 73.52 174,606 16.90 88,907 8.60 10,101 0.98 1931 c 1,036,339 761,922 73.52 175,138 16.90 89,134 8 60 10,145 0.98 1932 1,073,827 778,803 72.52 192,137 17.90 92,520 8.61 10,367 0.97 1933 1,140,941 798,506 69.99 234,967 20.59 96,791 8.48 10,677 0.94 1934 1,210,554 814,379 67.27 282,975 23.38 102,407 8.46 10,793 0.89 1935 1,308,112 836,688 63.96 355,157 27.15 105,236 8.04 11,031 0.85 1936 1,366,692 862,730 63.13 384,078 28.10 108,506 7.94 11,378 0.83 1937 1,401,794 883,446 63.02 395,836 28.24 110,869 7.91 11,643 0.83 1938 1,435,285 900,250 62.72 411,222 28.65 111,974 7.80 11,839 0.83 1939 1,501,698 927,133 61.74 445,457 29.66 116,958 7.79 12,150 0.81 1940 1,544,530 947,846 61.37 463,535 30.01 120,587 7.81 12,562 0.81 1941 1,585,500 973,104 61.38 474,102 29.90 125,413 7.91 12,881 0.81 1942 1,620,005 995,292 61.44 484,408 29.90 127,184 7.85 13,121 0.81 Source: Esco Foundation (1947).
a. Exclusive of members of His Majesty's Forces (Great Britain).
b. Adapted from table, "Estimated Population of Palestine," Statistical Abstract of Palestine 1943, p. 2.
c. The figures for 1931 and following years are as of 31 December of each year.Table 2.5 Recorded immigration and emigration, Palestine, 1930-1939
Year or period Immigration Emigration Net immigration Jews Non-Jews Total Jews Non-Jews Total Jews Non-Jews Total 1930 4,944 1,489 6,433 1,679 1,324 3,003 3,265 165 3,430 1931 4,075 1,458 5,533 666 680 1,346 3,409 778 4,187 1932 9,553 1,736 11,289 x a x x 9,553 1,736 11,289 1933 30,327 1,650 31,977 x x x 30,327 1,650 31,977 1934 42,359 1,784 44,143 x x x 42,359 1,784 44,143 1935 61,854 2,293 64,147 396 387 783 61,458 1,906 63,364 1936 29,727 1,944 31,671 773 405 1,178 28,954 1,539 30,493 1937 10,536 1,939 12,475 889 639 1,528 9,647 1,300 10,947 1938 12,868 2,395 15,263 1,095 716 1,811 11,773 1,679 13,452 1939 16,405 2,028 18,433 1,019 977 1,996 15,386 1,051 16,437 Total 222,648 18,716 241,364 6,517 5,128 11,645 216,131 13,588 229,719 Source: Esco Foundation (1947).
a. "x" indicates that emigration was not reported.source: United Nations University http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80859e/80859E05.htm
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Perry
Hi Defender.
Crazy computers tonight. Post are appearing and disappearing. My re-ply is below.
Perry
Edited by - Perry on 20 October 2002 21:30:0
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sf
February Headlines 2002
... US FORCES ON THE GROUND IN IRAQ. ... Marines will play war games in Boise ... BANKING---Watchtower
Society Style. Utah Town Repeals ... later became President of the Rand ...
www.hardtruth.bravepages.com/hardtruth.topcities.com/ feb_headlines_2002.htm - 76k - Cached -
Perry
Hi Defender,
Thanks for the tables. The site they came from has some interesting comments as well. It appears that the tables you presented deals with demographics for the entire land called Palestine. They also only start in 1922. In my original post my numbers were only dealing with Jerusalem as a city.
I was quoting from a Travel Guide To Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker. The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians, and 40,000 were Jews. The book also says,"The number of Jews has risen greatly in the last few decades in spite of the fact that they are forbidden to immigrate or to possess landed property."
So, if Baedeker is correct, the Jews, in spite of persceution represented the overwhelming majority in Jerusalem by 1906. This certainly begs the question of why Jerusalem had so few Muslims if it is the "third holiest city in Islam" as we constantly are reminded. Surlely, if this was a common belief more Muslims would have settled there at that time. Others have commented that Arab immigration followed Jewish immigration because of increased economic activity.
The site you quoted from has this to say:
The population of Ottoman "Palestine" is difficult to estimate, because:
1. There was no administrative district of Palestine. Turkish census figures were for various districts, including the Jerusalem, Acco and Nablus districts for example. The Acre district included areas in Lebanon, outside the modern borders of Palestine in which there were no Jews.
2. Turkish census figures did not include Bedouins (estamted at a few thousand) and foreign subjects, of which there were about 10,000 Jews.
3. Both Arabs and Jews avoided the Turkish census. Foreigners who were without residence permits did not want to make their presence known. Arabs and Jews wished to avoid taxes and conscription.
As the data are ambiguous, pro-Zionist and anti-Zionist sources give different estimates. The Turkish census for 1878 listed 462,465 Turkish subjects in the Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre districts: 403,795 Muslims (including Druze), 43,659 Christians and 15,011 Jews. In addition, there were at least 10,000 Jews with foreign citizenship (recent immigrants to the country), and several thousand Muslim Arab nomads (Bedouin) who were not counted as Ottoman subjects.
By 1908, according to Dr. Hala Fattah (http://www.jerusalemites.org/2_6_1.html) :" when Sultan Abdul-Hamid II's rule collapsed, it was estimated that the Jewish population of Palestine had risen to 80,000, three times its number in 1882, when the first entry restrictions were imposed." Other estimates put Jewish prewar population as low as 40,000 and as high as 100,000.
According to Arjan El Fassed in 1912 there were only 40,000 Jews and 525,000 Arabs in Palestine.
The war reduced both Arab and Jewish populations to some extent.
So, for a variety of reasons, political, criminal, financial, and lack of adequet adminstrative integrity, the polulation of Palestine is difficult to determine from so-called "official" sources. Even so, Baedeker does not contridict the above sources. In fact, I tend to place more credibility on his estimates because of his interest in printing accurate travel guides, (which he is famous for) as opposed to supporting a geo-political agenda....especially in the relative calm of 1906.
Edited by - Perry on 20 October 2002 22:25:28
Edited by - Perry on 20 October 2002 22:29:29
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Perry
My posts seem to be dis-appearing on this thread. Has this happened to anyone else?
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Mulan
One of my daughters in law, has a sister in law, in the Marines. She has been off for awhile, because she got married, honeymoon, etc.
She is reporting back in 6 weeks, presumedly to go to war.
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Perry
Hi sf,
I agree, there are usually grains of truth to most any intrigue. However, I cannot accept that thousands of people were allowed to die, including possibly members of our national government because of a pipeline. Sounds more like some hungry lawyers working on contingency fees.
Thanks for the info though.
Perry
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expatbrit
It is unlikely that the current hardline Israeli administration wants Arafat to be replaced. He's too useful as a whipping post for the likes of Chief of Staff Yaalon, who recently spoke of the Palestinians as a "cancer". Replacing Arafat with a more moderate leader will only increase pressure on the Sharon government to negotiate land for peace, anathema to hardliners who see crushing the Palestinians completely as the only final solution. Ironically, it seems that it is the Israelis and their fundamentalist Christian supporters in the United States who have gone the furthest in forgetting the lessons of sixty years ago.
Expatbrit
From The Economist of Sept 26, 2002:
IF THERE were a Yasser Arafat preservation society, Ariel Sharon and his men would be founder members. Their decision to mount a public performance to humiliate and threaten Mr Arafat interrupted an unprecedented revolt by younger parliamentarians against their eternal leader. The result was predictable: instead of challenging Mr Arafat to give up his executive powers, Palestinians marched in his defence.
In slow motion, by the light of the television cameras, Israeli bulldozers spent last weekend destroying Mr Arafat's Ramallah headquarters, leaving Mr Arafat and about 200 companions cowering in a single wing (see article). The timing of this action was so plainly counter-productive that the charitable suggested that it might be little more than an unthought-out, emotional reaction to the horror of last week's two suicide bombs in Israel, particularly the one in central Tel Aviv.
Yet the cat-and-mouse pursuit of Mr Arafat fits neatly into Israeli tactics that focus on the Palestinian leader and his failings. Mr Sharon has American backing for his refusal to deal with Mr Arafat. And since Israel's prime minister, or so many suspect, would also prefer not to deal with any Palestinian if the bargaining were to lead him to a territorial concession, there is logic to keeping an enfeebled Mr Arafat in place. Meanwhile, the Israeli army continues its bid, as outlined by its chief of staff, to batter the Palestinians into capitulation.
But this, as Kofi Annan, the UN 's secretary-general, warned Israel this week, is a bankrupt policy that will not work. The Security Council then passed a resolution that called on Israel immediately to cease its military actions in Ramallah and expeditiously to withdraw its army towards the positions it held two years ago. Israel, as usual, took little notice.
This is embarrassing for America, which, with Iraq on its mind, would like to give the Arab world as little cause as possible to compare Israel's attitude to Security Council resolutions to that of Iraq's. Unusually, it abstained on the resolution, rather than vetoing it. But, despite the now rare phenomenon of American displeasure, Israel's siege of Mr Arafat's compound seems set to continue, and its military operations in Gaza are even intensifying.
The new crisis has temporarily blown away the Palestinians' demand for internal change. But it will return. Their parliament, deeply underwhelmed by Mr Arafat's new cabinet, had forced it to resign. Before fresh ministers could be appointed, the building they meet in had been turned to dust.
Elections are the answer
The Palestinians do not wish to follow Israeli-American instructions by unseating their leader. But they do want radical reform. By this, they mean a more competent administration, and a separation of powers between the Palestine Liberation Organisation (the umbrella theoretically sheltering all Palestinians) and the Palestinian Authority. Above all, they want President Arafat to appoint a prime ministerthe compromise candidate, acceptable to most, is Mahmoud Abbas, also known as Abu Mazento run the West Bank and Gaza.
Mr Arafat's reluctance to relinquish authority is legendary. But he does at least say that he is not against the idea of a prime minister, in principle. He should be pushed hard, by friendly outsiders as well as by his own people, to turn principle into practice. Once he has conceded the change, the democratic way of putting it into effect would be at the elections he has promised for January 20th, but which can take place only if Israel releases the West Bank from its tight bonds of sieges, closures and curfews.
At present Israel's government, with America's encouragement, is determined not to allow elections that would benefit Mr Arafat. This is a mistake, and blatantly undemocratic. Although the old man would almost certainly be re-elected president, a free election would also bring in a larger number of younger, more representative parliamentarians. This is not the sort of regime change that the Americans, let alone the Israelis, might have chosen. But it will be a group more in tune than the old guard were with Palestinian aspirations. And if Mr Arafat has been persuaded to devolve most of his executive responsibilities, it will also be more competent.
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QUEENIE
good question -- wake me when it is over -- this man made Armegaddon that is with BUSH leading it all !!! QUEENIE