Bill Bowen's attack on Ray Franz

by COJ 113 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

• 

  JT

  In my view, it's about getting away from the Watchtower mentality of throwing stones at people who disagree: "our way or the highway", "if you don't join me you're against me".

  ######

  well spoken- personally i think bill has done an excellent job in many areas, but i also have the abliity to see that he has "Jacked" up in other areas

  as i stated in a thread days ago, Bill is in a very unique position i would hate to see him blow it with some of the antics that i have been mentioned,

  since he is the "face" of the child abuse issue, it calls for caution and Discretion in my view, when that point was pointed out --a number of persons who support bill's efforts in this matter, (Like the rest of us who support him as well) took offense. they wiped out the old LITUS TEST

  the test that many of us saw in wt in fact as a Former Society Man I gave that test to many myself so when i saw it i quickly reconized it for what it was-

  in the org we were never allowed to even HINT at the possiblity that we didn't agree 110% with the org to do so would be an indication of being DISLOYAL AND NO SUPPORTING THE ORG/CAUSE

  and i personally felt that is what i saw here as i had stated some displayed a "My Bill right or Wrong my bill"

  as i had menetioned at this point of game bill doesn't need as i stated "yes men and yes women" instead folks who are honest enough to say "Hey man you might want to think about this before you say or do this, it may come back to haunt us" etc

  and in my view that was all that most of us were merely saying-- AND NOT-- that we don't support bill or the issues involving the victims of child abuse.

  as i had stated, it was more of a matter of TIMING AND "MANNER" of presentation

  what often happens is the Indiviual becomes the issue and not the issue itself

  when we look back at the very org we left that is what i see, personally i have stated many times that the wt would have perhaps been fine as long as russell stuck with bible commentary but once HE became the issue, then truth and issues of concern fell by the way side

  well that can happen with any org whether for good or bad - if the focus is lost then the issue suffers

  just look at this thread and others on this subject, days have been spent as i stated with the different

  "Camps" proclaiming whose man can "Piss" further .

  it is when personlities take on a life of themselves.

  i feel regardless of who it is and what the issue is they represent--- NO ONE IS BEYOND BEING QUESTIONED

  I'm just sadden that so many of us have forgotten that we were once forbidden to do that

  NEVER AGAIN FOR ME
• 

  JT

  The very notion that one's exodus from the cult is more honorable than the next, smacks of a deeply ingrained overestimation of one's own self worth, or should I say self-righteousness!

  i TOTALLY AGREE some decide to DA themseleves, others are DFed some decide to drift and I know i have stated along with tons of other folks, EACH PERSON MUST DECIDE FOR THEMSLEVES

  and that is basically what i see here this person didn't like THE WAY that someone else chose to leave this cult, this type of mindset is sad to say the least

  JT for sure the Bethel halls are reverberating with whisper's about this fiasco.

  they are rolling on the floor
• 

  wasasister

  Again, thank you Mr. Jonsson for coming forward to give us a first hand and contemporaneous view of events.

  The expose, if you will, by bjc2012 opened as follows:

  What I'm about to speak will not be popular among ex-JWs, even though this is board of "free speech". What I'm about to say, will no doubt be viewed quite irreverently by many here, who I say, have inadvertently created a sacred icon, perhaps, unknowingly. A sacred "icon" of their own making. But all I will speak, all of it, will be truth. Hard "truths" that some of us will not want to face. The stinging words will appear as the unholy desecration of an "symbol" of courage, who in actuality, is not. Some already know this. Others do not. However, the few that do know this, will get the point I am making and will understand what I'm trying to say, on this most Excellent Discussion Board of Simon's making..

  The introduction sets a writing pattern repeated throughout the post: repeated use of words like "fact" and "truth", and overuse of quotation marks around words for what reason? Emphasis? Doubt? It made me cautious before I ever started reading the rest of the content.

  Many of us here are compelled to maintain anonymity, including myself. I still have close family ties within the religion and if I am ever able to assist them to leave, I must not reveal my participation here. I found early on in my posting life that if I presented something I believed with words like "fact" or "truth", I would be called on it. I learned never to say: "scientists now know...." unless I could say which scientists, where it was published, who funded the research, etc. (Thank you to Farkel, AlanF and others for your not-so-gentle lessons.)

  It is one thing to dispute, argue, or otherwise contend with another poster's comments on this board. It is quite another to present as factual incidents in a poster's life or history using their real name. If I were to do so, I would then be obliged to reveal my own real name and substantiate how I came by my first-hand knowledge. It would be inadequate to simply say: "in 1976 thus-and-so happened to Bro. John J. Elder."

  If bjc2012's information is to be accepted at face value, the person with the most reason to hold ill feelings towards Ray Franz is Carl Jonsson. Twice now, Mr. Jonsson has posted in support and defence of Franz. That tells me all I need to know about the history between these two individuals.

  One more thought on the idea of ex-JW icons: There is a relatively small number of Jehovah's Witnesses world wide. The number of outspoken former JW's is even smaller. The number of prominent, well-know, and published former JW's is miniscule. That makes them high-profile figures, but certainly not objects of worship. Respect, perhaps, but NOT worship.

  Sincerly,

  Wasa

  Edited by - wasasister on 26 October 2002 13:46:13
• 

  bjc2012

  To: COJ

  I do not know why you are trying to throw suspicion on Ray Franz, his motives and actions..

  I'd say you are doing the same thing, not to me, but to Bill Bowens and the Silentlambs movement. But that's just my opinion though.

  However since you mentioned "motives". First of all, let me remind you that "motives" of people, are ONLY fully understood by God Almighty. Therefore, I would caution you to remember that fact, when referring to myself or any one else you have chosen to personally attack. This thread's TITLE that YOU, Carl O. Jonsson started condemns you of what you say I have done.

  No, I need not look any farther, Brother Jonsson. Yes, the title of your thread is convenient enough, "Bill Bowen's attack on Ray Franz".

  How dare you, say such a thing?

  Now, I must ask you, WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING BILL BOWENS?

  Now, I see that this is also a "fact" to be reckoned with.

  It is you, brother Jonsson, that have launced this attack, is that not so?

  If Bill Bowens asked for your help and assistance, if he asked RV Franz for his assistance, what is the problem?

  "Can't we just all get along?", as Rodney King said.

  Listen, why not show a little SOLIDARITY here my brother. Solaridarity with Bill Bowens, Brother Jonsson?

  Solidarity with Bill Bowens and the Silentlambs movement.

  But you and RV Franz have an "agenda" I see. And I hope Bill Bowens really reads this because here is the punch line:

  You people teach, Jehovah's Witnesses are just another religion. And that means, the presumed "Child Molestation" Problem is exactly the same, as in all other religions.

  That's what you and RV Franz teach.

  You say JWs are just like any other religions, right?

  Well, Bill Bowens gave ten (10) good reasons to show Jehovah's Witnesses ARE NOT like any other religion that has the problem of Child Molestation. Can you please for the sake of this Discussion board and of course for Bill Bowens edification, address these 10 questions please? I will quote them below:

  1. Do other church members have the shepherd dominated mentality JWs have?

  2. Do other churches allow sex offenders complete anonymity within the church when it is discovered?

  3. Do other churches advise that the minister has the last word when molestation issues arise?

  4. Do other churches lead members to believe their investigatorial measures are the best way to determine if a person has committed a crime?

  5. Do other churches advise the best way to help a troubled person is to tell them to endure and wait for Gods Kingdom to solve their problems?

  6. Do other churches take a person who is troubled because of molestation, who has begun self-destructive behaviors and disfellowship them, ostracizing them from the people who would be in the best position to help them?

  7. Do other churches require two witnesses to the actual event of molestation before taking any disciplinary measures?

  8. Do other churches threaten parents of molested children with disfellowshipment if they try to warn other members whose children may be in danger?

  9. Do other churches remove ministers who warn parents of the danger of a certain pedophile molesting their children?

  10. Do other churches provide zero training when it comes to how to direct a molested child to get the help they need?

  Now, Brother Jonsson, if the answer above is "No", for any of these questions, that's any of them -- then you and RV Franz are wrong!

  Did you get that, Brother Jonsson?

  I said, you and RV Franz ARE WRONG!!!

  And you are MISLEADING the people who listen to you. You are misleading any JWs or ex-JWs that considers you both as wise sages of our time too, and starts to ADOPT your viewpoints as you have so eloquently expressed above..

  So Brother, you are wrong, pure and simple.

  And this thread that you have started is also wrong too!

  Why can't you acknowledge the great work that Silentlambs has accomplished? Why? Did Bill Bowens, all of a sudden, "steal your thunder" from you and RV Franz?

  Listen, Bill Bowens has proven to you, the WTS and anybody else who challenges him, that the Child Molestation problem among JWs is collosal, monumental and completely unique. Those ten (10) questions shown above, that evidently you can't answer are the proof!

  Perhaps, that is why you are so hotly bothered by the Silentlambs movement. What's the matter, did Bill Bowens "steal your thunder"? You guys got all of the "press" before Bill, right? So now we have a "new dog" in town now, huh? Bill Bowens is the "man" now, and the two of you, you and Ray just can't stand it, is that so?

  As he realized that my conclusions were correct, how can you claim that he encouraged or participated in the widespread defamation of my name and character as a result of my research?

  Where is that statement in what I wrote, Brother Jonsson? Please point it out to me. You see, now you are embellishing, aren't you?

  Listen my friend, I have no "beef" with you, personally. You live in Sweden. I live in America. So, you have no idea of the power and influence of RV Franz as a member of the Governing Body during those eventful years of 1971-80. You say, "Yeah, Ray told me and Ray told me that, and he said this to the Governing Body, and said that, and he did this or that". And Ray went to the G.B. and fought for me", and so on and on. Pleeeeeeeease, give me a break!

  Ask yourself, when E. Dunlap was being disfellowshiped, RV Franz was no where to be found, was he? That ought to tell you something.

  But hey I know you and he have a good thing going, distributing your "message", and all these days. So, I know, know you and RV Franz are really, busy "these days". I can understand your "business" partnership too. And now I'm beginning to understand why Bill Bowens and the pressing, pertainent issues he raises are not quite so conducive your "ministry" and RV Franz's, these days. I understand why Bill Bowens, is not quite, your "cup of tea". I understand. (Bill, I hope you are reading this.)

  I can understand, the whys of it all, and why really giving true support and showing solidarity with Bill Bowens in Silentlambs movement would not be the "right" thing to do, these days. We can see it. The real support just isn't there, based upon your post above. Even though Bill has said over and over, he wants "peace" you brothers. And he wants all current active JWs along with exJW "brothers" to work together, to accomplish something, you guys just "turn your heads" and busy yourself "doing your thing".

  I can see you and Ray are not behind him 100 percent. But, before you posted, I wondered, why?

  As I ask you now, why are you attacking Bill Bowens? That is my question to you. If you have to answer "No" to those questions he poses above, then Bill Bowens has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, Jehovah's Witnesses as a organization, ARE DIFFERENT from all other religions, that have this problem. They are completely different. They are a "Pedophile Paradise", just as Bill says. But of course, if that were true, that would mean that again, perhaps you and RV Franz were wrong in your "theory" that JWs are just another religion, wouldn't it? And that's what you two have been teaching, isn't it?

  I say to you, instead of attacking Bill Bowens, as you have with the creation of this thread, brother Jonsson, you should be conciliatory and try to bring all current JWs and ex-JWs TOGETHER, instead of posting what you have above against Bill Bowens and the Silentlambs movement. You, Carl O. Jonsson should have deep RESPECT for what Bill Bowens, Barbara Anderson and the Silentlambs Movement is all about!

  I say Brother Jonsson, it would be nice if we could "STAND TOGETHER" for once, as a united people, and see "eye-into-eye" for once as exJWs and active JWs. If we could see what Bill Bowens was saying, over there in Kentucky. And work together as a team, rather "fight" between us, as I see you are clearly doing, so busy trying to protect Ray's reputation and all, so you can distribute MORE BOOKS, then, maybe we just might get somewhere, for a change. I believe that is what Jehovah really, really wants, don't you? -- See Isa. 52:8.

  Why can't we just become "friends of peace", like Jesus said? -- Luke 10:6

  But unfortunately as far as RV Franz goes, you will never ever convince me that RV Franz is anything, more than an "escape artist", since I know way too much about him and his unique "ministry", while ON the Governing Body, and after leaving the JW Organization. But you are in Sweden, and were not there in 1971-1980. I understand that.

  So, I say believe what you want about what transpired during those years at Bethel, all the while they were "barbequing" you. Thats your business, so means nothing to me.

  But, I tell you this, people that are more "in the know" about this situation, know just how powerful RV Franz was back in those years. And how he certainly got a "a ringside seat" when the Governing Body and Associates were BARBEQUING YOU in 1978. I suggest you should read my thread on "RV Franz revealed" my friend. Its on the Main Board called "Friends", because in my opinion, I'm afraid you have been seriously "hoodwicked" by one of the best.

  Peace,

  bjc
• 

  IslandWoman

  bjc,

  You're losing it aren't you? You're unraveling.

  IW
• 

  wasasister

  bjc:

  If you are to have any credibility at all, please note a few things about your posts

  • You can put "quotation marks" around "everything" you "write" but it does not "make your point."
  • If you are such a supporter of the founder of Silentlambs, it would be nice to get his name right. It is Bill Bowen, NOT Bowens.
  • Ray Franz and Carl Jonsson would never have posted here at all, had not Mr. Bowen cast aspersions on Ray's character and morals. All of their posts have been in reaction rather than action.
  • Neither Mr. Jonsson nor Mr. Franz have attempted to teach anything. Your use of that term is inappropriate.
  • We, the ex-Jehovah's Witness community, do not speak with one voice. We never have and we likely never will. We are finally free to speak with our own voices and resent being told what we must think, say, or do in regard to any issue.
  • One can support victims of child abuse, in or out of JW's, and still express critisism of Bill Bowen. The one does not cancel out the other.

  Now, how about telling us who you are and why you are so emotional on this matter
• 

  JT

  bjc,

  You're losing it aren't you? You're unraveling.

  IW

  I was thinking the same thing, nothing against this person, but to me this poster has other issues in thier life that they may need to give atttention too

  Rarely have i seen the level of Anger and frustration demostrated in ones post as i personally have seen from this poster-

  I would really recommend that this poster touchbase off line with some of this,

  The pain that this person has experienced is written all over thier post in my view,

  I have no ill will toward this person, i only hope that whatever it is that they are able to work thru it-

  I try not to dog folks esp since most of us don't know each other beyond our post,

  but even still our post often do reveal a certain style or bent on certain issues.

  And for this poster i only wish you well as you continue on your journey of healing after leaving wt.

  I understand that this poster is a female, which in my view makes it even more difficult being a jw

  i know my wife hated the way women were treated , looked down upon as being dumb.

  this one elder told my wife she needed to be home making biscuits for JT

  my wife was 2 inches from cussing this fool out, if a male were to say it today to Lady "C" she would- smile

  so if this poster is a female and a jw for many years i realize the effect of this org on women is not pretty

  i wish you well
• 

  DannyBear

  I think your right JT.........this bj guy or gal.......just got caught. It's first post was fairly well written and editied, this last display is simply a flailing of the arms and legs.

  In fact I don't think I have ever seen in a written format, so much double talk, and emotional upheave. His words and sentenances boiling with pychotic fervor.

  You know Iam ahamed to have to make this guess, but I think the author of this little psychotic ramble, may well be Bill Bowen himself. Or at the very least someone very close to him.

  Danny
• 

  nancee park

  Intentional or not this string has tended to move the spotlight from TED JARASC to those who have exposed him...divide to overcome...but ultimately it cannot succeed. The courts will see to it.
• 

  wasasister

  Danny:

  You know Iam ahamed to have to make this guess, but I think the author of this little psychotic ramble, may well be Bill Bowen himself. Or at the very least someone very close to him.

  Let's give the benefit of the doubt here. I doubt very much that Bill himself, or someone close to him, would continually misspell his last name. I am uncomfortable with guilt by association in this instance.