Life After Death.

by Blueblades 19 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  IslandWoman

  Hi AGuest,

  ... is inaccurate. "Closer to a death state"... and death... are not the same thing.

  I was not trying to say that Lazarus was "close to a death state", the Bible said he was dead.

  As for a pulse, a beating heart, there are many who have gone under the knife and have had their hearts purposely stopped. Yet, to a puny man (in comparison to the Christ) they can be referred to as "sleeping" because he has the power to "wake them up." That was the point I was trying to make, but apparently not too well.

  May you have peace too, AGuest.

  IW
• 

  Double Edge

  An interesting background point, Lazurus was the last person recorded that Jesus raised from the dead. All those He previously had raised had only been dead a very short time, a few hours at most. Jesus didn't hurry when requested by Mary and Martha, in fact one of them was a little preturbed that he took his time - a point was to be made here. Most of the Jews believed people had souls. They also believed that the soul 'lingered' for about three days and then returned to God. Raising Lazurus after 3 days 'proved' the power of this JESUS for those who would question his previous miracles of raising someone who had only been 'temporarily' dead and who had been 'lingering' near the body.
• 

  AGuest

  Dearest Island Woman... may you have peace... and please forgive my misunderstanding of your point. I responded to what I THOUGHT you meant, and evidently I was in error. I apologize.

  Dearest Navigator... peace to you, as well... and please permit me to respond to your comments. Thank you. You said:

  These thoughts are from A Course in Miracles (Manual for Teachers).

  Whose author is an "expert" in what, exactly?

  There are in direct conflict with the convoluted thoughts in the bible.

  I agree with the "direct conflict" statement... I mean, I do so far as what you've written here. But I have to disagree with the phrase "convoluted thoughts" in the Bible. The Bible is relatively clear; it is earthling man's misinterpretation, mistranslation, mistransliterations, misleadings and false teachings and doctrines that he claims to be BASED on the Bible... that leads to most of the controversy.

  "The 'reality' of death is firmly rooted in the belief that God's Son is a body.

  I do not know this body, per se. I do know that my Lord HAD a body (of flesh) and HAS a body (of spirit)... and is the HEAD of a Body... of which I am a "member"... but... I have no knowledge that my Lord himself "is a body"...

  And if God created bodies, death would indeed be real.

  But He did create them... whether they (bodies) be of flesh... or spirit. For if there is a fleshly body, there is also a spirit one. One is terrestrial, the other celestial.

  But God would not be loving.

  Well, I would have to say WHICH "God" you're referring to, at this point...

  There is no point at which the contrast between the perception of the real world and that of the world of illusions becomes more sharply evident. Death is indeed the death of God, if He is Love.

  Death... dear one... exists. [He] in fact is the ENEMY of God... and of the sons of God. And it is he, Death, that now enslaves us... as we were SOLD into slavery to that one, by the first man, Adam.

  And now His Own creation must stand in fear of Him. He is not Father, but destroyer. He is not Creator, but avenger. Terrible His Thoughts and fearful His image. To look on His creations is to die.

  Hmmmm... I dunno. I do not fear Him; rather I LOVE Him... beyond description, actually. My only fear is of hurting HIM... more so that He hurting me. Why? Because I know what hurt is... and I wouldn't wish it on my "last" enemy (which would, of course, have to include Death, wouldn't it?)... let alone wish it on my Father. And I have been granted to look on almost ALL of creation... including that which is spiritual/celestial... and yet, I live. I have been before the TRUE Ark of the Covenant, I have prostrated myself before the glassy sea, touched it, and have seen the TRUE Propitiatory, the TRUE 'cover'... the plain copper serpent that is my Lord, as well as the "shining" and brilliant "cherub", who turned his face FROM that "cover". And yet, I live. I have seen the world of the dead, with bones piled for miles high and deep. I have seen the dead staring, unable to move for there was not enough life IN them to move them, but only to awaken them for but a moment to inquire in one consciousness whether I was the one they were waiting for, although they had not enough consciousness between to even know who it was they were waiting for... and yet, I live.

  "'And the last to be overcome will be death'. Of course! Without the idea of death there is no world.

  You think death an "idea." Okay, so do away with the idea, then. Merely rid yourself of it. And yet... you will still die. As will I.

  All dreams will end with this one. This is salvations's final goal; the end of all illusions.

  The only reason that dreams will end and that illusions will be brough to nought is because salvation's "final goal"... is THE REALITY. You now exist in the illusion, dear Frank. We all do. We are existing in the "negative"... of the positive. But because our flesh came FROM this negative... and it is "at enmity" with our SPIRIT... which came from the POSITIVE... we accept this as the reality... that which we can SEE...hear, taste, touch, smell... that which is EMPIRICAL... rather than KNOW it to be what it is: the ILLUSION. And as long as your spirit resides in this flesh... and the realm that produced this flesh... you will continue bound to... and dependent upon... the illusion. That is... unless you learn to walk BY FAITH... and keep your "eyes" not on the things SEEN... the ILLUSION... but on the things UNSEEN... the reality!

  And in death are all illusions born.

  Actually, you have it backward: in death, all illusions are brought to nothing. That is why many "zealots" commit suicide: they have figured that part out. However, what they MISS is that it is not up to them... to choose the time.

  What can be born of death and still have life?

  Every living thing, save Adam and Eve. What plant can sprout less a seed dies? Before Adam... life... came out of Life. After Adam... life... came out of Death. That is, until my Lord... the FIRSTBORN from the dead. For he IS "the Life".

  But what is born of God and still can die?

  Nothing born of God can die... if it stays in union with Him, through Christ. Apart from that One, however, the one "born" can do nothing at all... including... live.

  The inconsistencies, the compromises and the rituals the world fosters in its vain attempts to cling to death and yet to think love real are mindless magic, ineffectual and meaningless.

  The world indeed "clings" to death... for Death is its owner. And to the world, love... is weak. It is not so, either way, with my Lord and those who belong to him.

  God is, and in Him all created things must be eternal. Do you not see that otherwise He has an opposite, and fear would be as real as love?"

  But my Father does have an opposite: He is LOVE, and where there is love, there is a casting out of fear. He is LIFE... and thus, His opposite would be Death... the "last" enemy.

  The bottom line is this: If God is real, there is no death.

  Not quite. The TRUTH is that there is no death... for those for whom God is real.

  If death is real, there is no God!

  Death IS real... for those for whom God does not exist.

  There is either a God of fear or one of Love.

  There is both... and the true name of the latter one, the Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. The name of the first... is Death... whose "sting" WILL be brought to and end, just as that one will also be brought to an end.

  In this there can be no compromise.

  There is none, for both exist. But they are not the same One.

  Jesus knew this and, in the case of the little girl and Lazarus, the illusion had to respond to his knowledge of the truth.

  You mean the illusion of death... "responded"... in that they were both made alive... by the very fact that they were never dead... and this my Lord knew? Yes? If so, you are in error. For my Lord knew very well that these were dead... and knew even BETTER that Death had no "hold" on them... for although Death had become the ultimate master over them, in that [he] took their lives, he [my Lord] was "master" over death... and took such lives... back.

  I, SJ, have stated this to you, just as I have heard it from my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, Son and Christ of the Most High God, the Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies.

  Again, I bid you peace.

  A slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  gumby

  Francois,

  You either have to believe the story or not believe the story. Jesus said...Lazarus has died and I'm going there to awaken him. Jesus SAID he died. You have gotten rusty with scripture I see and looks like ya need to go back to the hall for awhile and brush up on some things.

  Blueblades,

  DO NOT let Shelby get in your head or she will controll you like a robot and you will become just like her. ( LOL shelby)

  IW,

  The debate over a soul living on is older than the Trinity. The Bible gives little to go on about life after death. Christians like the one where Paul said better to be absent in the body and to be with the Lord. He never said when that would be.

  People who see dead relatives in ghostly figures makes you wonder about spirits that live on.

  I wished I knew this one....just so I know what to expect when I bite the big one.
• 

  Navigator

  A Guest

  A Course in Miracles is "channeled material". The author is Jesus. I don't know what you would consider him an "expert" in. The use of the world "real" is taken to mean permanent in that work.
• 

  AGuest

  Dearest Gumby... may you have peace! And please know that I took no offense and am "laughing": Truly, I do not wish to get into anyone's head... but only help them allow Christ into their heart. That's it; that's all. However, you also said:

  People who see dead relatives in ghostly figures makes you wonder about spirits that live on.

  Spirits, in fact, DO live on... it is the flesh that dies. However, one must take care as to the SOURCE of such spirits: who it was... that "raised" them. Because for those who belong to Christ, it is only he that may do so. True, there are "spirit mediums", who have the ability to communicate within the spirit world, such as the woman whom King Saul consulted. But such ability is "granted" by some "authority. Raising spirits, then, is a presumptuous endeavor, and although I have the gift of discerning/hearing spirits and communicating this way, too, I have no such authority given me by my Lord. I, therefore, leave it to my Lord. It just makes life less... ummmmm, "complicated" to obey this way, methinks, and my Lord KNOWS I don't need any more complications! LOLOLOL!

  Dearest Navigator... may you also have peace!

  All I can say to you is, "perhaps"... but then to take what you have written here... to accept it has having come from my Lord (whose name is NOT "Jesus" or "Je-Zeus"... which is a TITLE... meaning "Jah is Zeus (God)"... but whose name is JAHESHUA, which means "JAH Saves" or "JAH is Salvation")... would seem illogical to me... for MANY reasons... but primarily for the very reason that if it HAD come from him... then you would have stated that to begin with, you would have given HIM the glory... for to him such glory belongs. And for the second reason that to know this "channeled" information, I would have to purchase a book (either pay for it up front... or in some way at some point down the line)... and according to my Lord... we receive... free. This latter I know to be true.

  So...

  All I can say to you is hear what you will... see what you will... believe what you will... and follow... whomever you will. As for me... there is only One, the Fine Shepherd... and it is his voice I hear... which voice seemed to have contradicted what you have written here.

  So...

  Again, I bid you peace.

  A slave of Christ,

  SJ
• 

  gumby

  Hi Shelby,

  Thanks for still having your sense of humor....your all right

  Because for those who belong to Christ, it is only he that may do so.

  If this is to believed as true...then all those who have seen apatures or voices or whatever, of their dead family or friends without christ, have had an experiance with Satan himself. I do not believe this. What use does a wicked spirit have with such ones? Those wicked spirits in the scriptures occupied people for a purpose and it was always bad...never good.

  Persons who claim this experiance of contact with a loved one, tell their story usually in a favorable light.....not a spooky ordeal as did those possesed in the bible.
• 

  rem

  I believe in life before death.

  rem
• 

  Navigator

  AGuest

  You need not lecture me on the aramaic version of Jesus's name. I am well aware of it. I use the name Jesus because that is understood by most on this board. You need not lay out any funds to become familiar with A Course in Miracles. Simply do a web search on it or go to www.acim.org. However, when you transition this earthly experience, be sure and explain to your "Lord" and master that you were too cheap to procure his words for mankind. Your tone is quite arrogant and you don't know me well enough to make assumptions about the way I present material.

  The gist of this thread, in case you have forgotten, deals with the continuance of life after death. The position of A Course in Miracles is that death has no reality(read permanence). You have not explained satisfactorily how God, who deals only in perfection, could create a flesh body which is subject to disease, aging, and death. It also suggests that the primary purpose of Jesus's sojurn on earth was to demonstrate the Love that God Is and to demonstrate that death could be overcome.
• 

  AGuest

  Dearest Navigator... may you have peace... and if you perceive my "tone" as arrogant, then I sincerely apologize: it was not meant to portray arrogance or even presumptuousness... but simply truth. I ask you, then, to consider my motive, which is the speak the truth, just as I have heard it, versus my tone... which "written" may come across different than I intend it to. Now, with regard to your last statement that:

  You have not explained satisfactorily how God, who deals only in perfection, could create a flesh body which is subject to disease, aging, and death.

  You are correct, for I misunderstood your statement that God did not create the body. My Father did, in fact, create the body, but not the one you have described here, that which is subject to disease, aging and... death. He, in fact, gave the first man, Adam, a PERFECT "vessel", one without flaw or defect. And as long as Adam remained "in union" with my Father, by means of eating from the Tree of Life, my Lord, the Son of God... his flesh remained perfect. However, when Adam CHOSE to obey another... the "high priest" or "agent" of Death... Satan... he (Adam) CHOSE... a different "father"... so that now he... and his progeny... belonged to THAT one. Thus, Adam's OFFSPRING had bodies "created"... by Death: the were "sold" into sin and death, and thus were subject no longer to the will of God... and LIFE... but to the will of Death.

  It also suggests that the primary purpose of Jesus's sojurn on earth was to demonstrate the Love that God Is and to demonstrate that death could be overcome.

  "It"... I am not sure what you are referring to, but it is true that my Lord's purpose was, in part, to demonstrate the Love that God is... as well as the FACT that death could be overcome. If you are suggesting that the book you've referred to makes this suggestion, then I would have to point out what seems to be a contradiction: that according to such writing death does not exist... but according to such writing death can be overcome. Can that which does not exist BE overcome? What would be the point?

  If, however, you are suggesting that that is what I am saying, then we are in agreement. It was indeed part of why my Lord came here. However, he also came here to give HIS life... in exchange for ours (those that belong to him). Death had a "price"... sin had a "wage"... our lives. It is what Death took, has taken and keeps taking, as [he] is never satisfied. However, that price/wage COULD be offset; however, not by any of us... for our lives individually had/have no "value" to Death... they are all equal, the same. There WAS a life, however, that was of value to Death... and [he] gave "authority" to his "high priest", Satan, to tempt my Lord into doing what Adam did... obey, and by connection, do obeisance TO... another. My Lord, however, did not: he responded to the Adversary's attempts to "gain" him... and stayed "facing" my Father.

  It was THAT life that was of "value"... and eventually, my Lord GAVE that life... to Death. However, Death... was "fooled"... for [he] not only was unable to KEEP my Lord ("death has NO hold on me"), but since my Lord "conquered" Death... [he] now has no hold on US... those who belong to my Lord, those whom he will LOOSE... from Death. He paid the price to do so... Death's price, sin's wage... was paid... with the sinless life of my Lord. Something none of us could ever achieve. And since we can't... we NEED him, his "ransom"... his "blood"... which REPURCHASED us... from Death's grip.

  Again, I apologize for my "tone," Navigator; it is not intended to relay anything other than faithful honesty. With that said, my I now say to you that my Lord does not consider me "too cheap." Indeed, I have only endeavored to follow his "commandment"... even here among these kind folks... which commandment says "You received... FREE; give... FREE." And so I endeavor to do so, sharing the greater portion of what I am given, and all that I am directed to share... with any who will "hear". And there is no I price I can exact for doing so, for it is NOT mine: I am merely a messenger. Thus, there are no books to print, no paper or ink to buy, no ministry to "support".

  If I... or ANY one else... were to connect a price, no matter how small... to what they say they've received from the Son of God... and attempt to pass that price on to any who wish to hear... I/we would be imposters. For the very message of my Lord was, has been and always will be... "Come! Take life's water... FREE!" I would implore YOU, then, to reconsider the TRUE "source" from which you get your information. For neither my Father nor my Lord need your money, or any one else's... nor do those who "work" for them. For such ones "keep on seeking the kingdom," and thus, their material needs are cared for... quite well... by my Lord.

  Again, I bid you peace.

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SJ