Focus, Right on! And Simon, when thier hired shrink says, on their website, the JW's that is, that in school "They did'nt tell us child molesting was that bad 20 years ago, we did'nt know it had long term effects" IT really sounds like what your saying right now. See, about 17 yrs. ago, I DID know it was going on, maybe focus did too. But I could'nt do much, I was 15 yrs. old. I even walked up to the elders & asked why he, the molester was'nt incarcerated. They basically told me to mind my own business. So, I had to see my 5 yr. old little brother( who to add insult to injury had his father die slowly of cancer in front of him 2 yrs before.) wake up screaming in the middle of the night, fighting whoever came to help him w/ his tiny little hands. He wouldnt take a bath without his clothes on. I watched one of the happiest children I have ever seen become withdrawn & angry. He is still withdrawn &angry, 17 yrs. later. His molester went on to molest several more kids in the cong. and elsewhere. So, SImon, & Island woman, & whoever else, don't you DARE tell me that this was'nt known about 5 yrs. ago. Walk in my shoes, then talk to me. Jw apologists make me sick.
Bill Bowen: a 'burial' ONLY for those who can read
by Focus 59 Replies latest jw friends
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Angharad
I'm saying that it, as in 'the extent of the problem', wasn't known about years ago. It is exactly the same situation that the Catholic church faces.
There is a reason that things like this are called "revalations" in the media - if they had been known all along then where is the news story?!?
Focus: I am amazed at how well you dodged the question and instead picked up on one small typo and turned it into the whole 'point'. Of course you didn't answer the question. You remind me very much of someone else who would never answer a question.
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Simon
Sorry, that was me !
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kenpodragon
Sides? Are we in a Kingdom Hall still. Just because people question these men, does not mean they are on sides. When someone says, "which side are you on?" I feel like I am on a elementary playground breaking up into teams. I would venture to say that most people on here that do not care for Bill, are in no way saying they follow Franz. What I have seen is people saying, "keep Franz out of this." By the way, I think this whole debate has been a learning lesson to people. Many lessons have been taught.
1. Question people constantly and do not think that just because people disagree, that you are wrong.
2. Some people want a leader.
3. Some people want to argue things out, even when they see the other side will never change.
4. We are all expressing our own views, and many times those views are saying "please stop expressing yours, and start agreeing with mine." Old habits die hard.
5. No one is perfect.
I would like to make one comment though on abuse support. I do not agree with Bill and his movement, nor do I offer him support personally. At the same time, I continually wonder why people then say, "then you do not support abuse victims." To which I say, "I support all abuse survivors, without division of race, religion, sex, or their stand in life." Support never wears blinders to only a select few victims. I have done many things to support all abuse survivors.
I would just feel a little more at ease with my fellow Ex-Jw's if I did not see so many people saying "Praise Brother Bill" when they shouldn't even see it that way anymore. We are no longer in the religion, their is no division, love and support should know no bounderies. People need to accept, many people do not know or care for Bill's actions. Just like politics, support who you want and do not have a fit when others disagree. Freedom is a two edge sword.
My thought
Dragon
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avishai
Excellent post, dragon. Whether I support Bill or not, Rays opinion means jack one way or the other as far as I'm concerned. Going after them for the cover ups has been something I've been working on for awhile, before the silentlambs thing was ever a gleam in BBs eye. What really gets my goat is those that say it did'nt happen, it was'nt covered up, & those who say that it did have an "agenda" to bring down the wts. I could'nt care less if they(the wts) believed that Ernie, Bert, & Snufalupagus were the holy trinity, I just want them to acknowledge that it did happen, the FEDERAL law, not state that only some states have, requiring mandatory reporting of childa abuse has been around since 1974. Thats almost 30 yrs. My friend told me" Hey, they annunced from the platform tonight to go straight to the police! I said, Nice, about 28 years to late(this was just a couple of mo. ago, about a week before dateline.
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VeniceIT
Great posts Focus and Avishai I agree completely!!!!!!!!! Thanks for not being afraid to say what you feel, and I really appricate your passion that came through in your post Avishai, I know it's been a long road and I hope your brother can find some kind of closure with his current activity, although nothing will ever take that away.
Ven
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shera
I don't side with ither one of them.I still have to catch up on some of my reading about them....or do I want to?
I think I'd be a bit abrasive with the GB and the "laws" they have.If I was DF for trying to protect the abused ones and the elders lied about me to a whole congregation.I'd be out to let them all know,they were lied to.I usally don't care what people think about me,but something like that should be let go at all.
The man has to have went threw some of the things we have and still probley is.I don't worship him,ither of them,just respect both.
If I were to meet the man,I would give him a hug and tell him what a good thing he is doing and keep it up.I think he needs to be "lifted up".It has to be hard on the nerves and he will tick people off and say harsh things.We all do...life of humans beings
I am totally sickened by ALL this crap and if I had the chance I'd say a mouthful to the GB.Also you know they won't listen,can you imagine what it must be like to talk and express yourself and be totally enored?The persons at the WTS just run and hide. So it seems from what I have read.Cowards
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Focus
avishai wrote:
Focus, Right on!
Thank you.
And Simon, when thier hired shrink says, on their website, the JW's that is, that in school "They did'nt tell us child molesting was that bad 20 years ago, we did'nt know it had long term effects" IT really sounds like what your saying right now.
No, that is not what Simon aka Angharad was saying. His error was a different one, which you go on to correctly address below.
See, about 17 yrs. ago, I DID know it was going on, maybe focus did too. But I could'nt do much
The same applies here, avishai.
Which is why I took such issue with the apologia drivel from "Friend" of the F iend Class a year and a half ago, who claimed - with much support from the WT-apologists who infest this forum - that no sanctions whatsoever existed to prevent or even deter the jW victim of child abuse (or some jW they then told) from involving the police or other external authorities.
A bare-faced, audacious LIE, demolished by myself in the various "Flies and Honey" threads to which I have provided links already.
"Friend" ostensibly had some measure of support from Ray, by the way. Or so he suggested.
Of course I am not implying (let alone saying) that Ray must have known sbout widespread pedophilia when he was part of the Gibbering Baboon Class. I think he probably did not. I have explained why already. And also: "Hear no evil..". But he is partly responsible for propagating the "two witnesses" rule, which really strikes to the heart of this matter.
And which is why, I suggest, Ray may, subconsciously or otherwise, be repudiating NOW the overwhelming evidence that pedophilia is rife among "God's people" (anecdotal, database-related and logical - where a system where something will flourish unchecked is established... nature abhors a vacuum... the pedophiles flock into their Paradise Kingdom) - far beyond the level among the Catholics. Is it any surprise? The Catholics do not excommunicate (or threaten to) someone who reports pedophiles to the police. The Catholics do not excommunicate (or threaten to) someone who involves outside authorities. The Catholics do not counsel people not to involve such authorities. The Catholics DO NOT HAVE THE 'TWO WITNESSES' REQUIREMENT. The rest is just noise.
Note the highlighted "NOW" in the paragraph above - that answers the question and demolishes such point that the Angharad->Simon posting mutant was attempting to make. I am not focussed on Ray's actions/inactions then. I am focussed on Ray's actions/inactions NOW. Repeat until understood.
And thanks, Angharad, for your compliment in this thread as to my apparently amazing ability avoiding answering (alliteration also!)
{{ Tragedy snipped; my heartfelt sympathy }}
So, SImon, & Island woman, & whoever else, don't you DARE tell me that this was'nt known about 5 yrs. ago. Walk in my shoes, then talk to me.
Simon is allowed leeway and is not being offensive, just a tad unfocused. Island Woman is a funny flaming troll who appears to have many I.Ds. I only post here as "Focus", so "her" suggestions to the contrary are just amusing. "She" is very competent - where "she" opposes doing something, ithat which she was opposing was, almost without exception, the right thing to do.
Jw apologists make me sick.
Yep.
And, once again for those who can't read too well, I do not view Ray as a JW-Apologist. As I have said. And as I have said today he is IMO:
(a) more learned
(b) more authoritative
(c) more restrained and much less melodramatic
(d) much, much less of a showman
(e) a better writer
(f) better presented
(g) more effective, in his gentle works of text, with wavering dubs
(h) old; much older (and so finding it more difficult to adjust his thinking on a major issue now, perhaps?), with such respect that this must here command,
(i) probably more kind
(j) possibly more humble
than Bill, I can hardly see that I have attacked Ray, or even damned his borderline apologia (grin) with faint praise. But then I am not so good at such inventive thinking as is the Idiot Class and the Watchtower Stooge Class.Of course I hold him accountable for his time on the G.B. I suspect I am less harsh on him in this than he is on himself. I would prefer it if he came all out and declared the WTS to be the Utter Sham we know it is - but perhaps he does not wish to compromise (g).
But I can and do and will continue to attack any denials, including his now, of the pedophilia epidemic within the Watchtower. I have long ago provided some simple mathematics to back up my use of the word "epidemic" here. The attempts to refute me singularly failed. And while I admit to a wide margin of error, EVEN IF I AM WRONG BY A FACTOR OF TWENTY (inconceivable!) and my figures are adjusted by that amount in the favor of the Watchtower - it still is an epidemic.
Calm reason appeals to Ray, rather than passion. I hope he will soon see beyond his own involvement, long ago, in the "two witnesses" fiasco (which I am sure he never intended to be used or applied as it has been, though he knew how legalistic are most bodies of elders... everyone makes mistakes) and rationally examines either (or both) the mathematics stemming from the database size or/and the simple logic (fertile ground will seemingly "attract" seed).
Thank you to a half dozen others too in this and other threads for support.
Last - the idea that Ray makes a lot of $$ from his writing is very incorrect. He does not, and receipts must be dwindling now. I encourage him to release, as soon as is practicable, the entirety of the two books from copyright in its English edition, so the same may be widely disseminated over the web.
Together (but not as a united Borg, thanks), we can and will get that damned Tower down and smashed. I know I will probably fall long before the Tower does, so I will not live to see it. Silly IslandWoman appears to think that telling me this will discourage me. What a poor judge of character!
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Focus
(Going Beyond That Which is Written Class)Edited by - Focus on 28 October 2002 15:31:13
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IslandWoman
Focus,
Your other, more feminine, screen name is more accommodating and has even claimed to be friends with Ray Franz.
IW
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Focus
To inject a lighter note:
IslandWoman opined:
[[[ Nonsense all discarded; nothing is left ]]]
1. I have no idea to what you refer.
2. You appear to be very confused.
3. I am sorry, but I am unqualified to treat your condition. As I advised the nnoderator101 Class from H2O, please seek help from a properly qualified shrink / "mental health practitioner". Beware of any Internet advice to the contrary. Good luck with your search.--
Focus
(Antitype of Danielle Class)