NOT DESTROYED !

by Derrick 21 Replies latest jw friends

LDH

If you get a good scriptwriter, let me know. I have some contacts in the Movie Industry.
Lisa
Sick of Stories Class
AGuest

Uh, hey there, Rick... peace to you!
I know you're most probably not to "keen" on hearing from me, but... I would like to respond to a comment or two you've made here, if you will be so kind as to permit me. Thank you! (If I am "reading" you wrong, however, due to your "approach"... I mean, which "end"... I sincerely apologize. However, based on what you've written here, may I say:
You asked/said:
WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE WILL NOT BE DESTROYED BY GOD? (At least, based on the Bible.)
Okay, that one's easy: the "righteous." What is NOT so easy, though, is knowing just WHO the "righteous" are. And, contrary to the teaching of most 'christian' religions... they are NOT those who live by works of 'law'... for the righteous one lives... by works... of FAITH.
But I have to admit that you made me sit up straight when you said:
First of all, being destroyed verses being "put to death" can be quite different. Those who die, such as criminals who commit murders, pay the penalty through their deaths and are entitled to a second chance at life everlasting.
While it is true that being destroyed is not the same as dying... your comment that those who die pay the penalty through their deaths... and thus are "entitled to a second change at life everlasting," is in error. GRAVE error. For your statement implies (and I want you to seriously THINK about this), that one's OWN blood... and thus one's own DEATH... can "redeem" one. If this is true, may I ask YOU, and you tell ME: what need do we have of a ransom? For what reason, then, did my Lord give HIS life? Rick, dear one... your life... and mine... has no "value". You cannot redeem yourself... let alone me... in life... OR in death. It is the death of my Lord, then, the CHRIST... that paid the penalty... if indeed it did. For it only paid the penalty for those who "belong" to him. Which is another subject entirely (and is NOT a "little" flock...)
Only God will judge them.
Yes, this is true, as seen by Daniel and John.
Jesus Christ died for ALL humans.
Ummmm, no... not quite. He died for those that "belong" to him... as well as those who "do good" to such ones. He did not, however, die for the "children of the Devil"... Gog.
Being "destroyed" is different.
Indeed, it is.
Ones soul permanently ceases to exist, and they remain unconscious forever. That is a pretty serious fate for anyone to meet!
Yes, serious. But think about what you stated here: "ceases to exist,"... "remains unconscious forever." Think about that. Even unconscious, something remains. However, if it ceases to exist, how can it remain? Destruction means just that, dear Rick... destruction. There is no "remain", for the body AND the spirit... are destroyed. When folks die, they are "conscious" of nothing. That is because the spirit sleeps. When they are destroyed, however, there IS no spirit any longer. And yes, that is a pretty serious fate. It is the fate of Gog, Magog... and those "not written in the Lamb's Book."
Then who will escape this terrible fate that is reserved for some people like the angel Satan?
Those who "belong" to the Christ... and those who "do good" to his brothers. These are the ones for whom his blood "covers" their sins... so that WHEN they are resurrected and judged... their sins are "blotted out". Thus, they are "sinLESS"... and receive LIFE. It is those who have NO "covering"... who are judged based on their deeds... good AND bad. And because they will certainly HAVE "bad"... they will be condemned... and sentenced to everlasting... destruction. Are these your everyday people who are not "christians" or "Jehovah's Witnesses"? No, for those who do good to Christ, by means of doing good to Christ's BROTHERS... don't even know it ("WHEN did we...?")
Just about everyone on Earth and in Heaven will be spared this fate.
Ahhh, Rick... not so. For the heavens and earth that are NOW... are "stored up for fire." Does that mean the physical earth? Nope. It means Gog (the 'goats' who did bad or did not do good to Christ's brothers) and Magog... the angels that sinned and are "reserved for JUDGMENT." That which is "not of God" in the PHYSICAL realm (earth), as well as those who rebelled against Him in the SPIRIT realm (heaven). Fire "comes down from heaven" and destroys these... and thus the heavens AND the earth is cleansed... purged... made "new". For only fire COMPLETELY cleanses.
Adam and Eve will receive a glorious resurrection at the end of the thousand years to meet the multitudes of their offspring.
True, Adam and Eve... will be resurrected, but neither you nor I know whether these two "unrighteous" will receive a resurrection of LIFE... or a resurrection... of judgment. It remains to be seen. For Adam, it is highly doubtful... but it is not in my hands... or my heart... to judge. I leave that to my Lord and my Father.
Since God is love, it is theoretically possible (but seemingly improbable) that Satan himself could suddenly turn against evil at the last moment and repent.
But if that were true, then you are saying that God is a liar. How so? Because all "scripture"... is inspired of God. And the Revelation IS scripture, inspired by God, which He gave to Christ, who after addressing the seven congregation, presented it to John through the arkangel Michael... and John was TOLD to write. And the Revelation says that Satan was cast into the Lake of Fire.
The Bible does not indicate that anyone has to die. All can be spared. "God is love."
True, all CAN be. The Bible does state, however, that not all WILL be. It is unfortunate. It is not my wish, nor it is the wish of my Lord or my Father. It is the WILL, however, of earthling man... those who do not KNOW my Lord... or do not obey him. Is this with regard to adhering specifically to the Law? No. To attending meetings and going out in field service? No. To falling over older gray-haired people because one THINKS they may be "anointed"? Nope. It is those who do not know God, by not knowing Christ... or... those who do not obey the "law"... to love. Even if they don't know the Christ, if they know LOVE... then they know God, and by connection "know" Christ. Think Rahab.
There aren't too many Saddam Husseins to worry about, fortunately. Hitler's dead, so perhaps the repentant side of this "human monster" will prevail and show that even the most evil people are not necessarily incorrigible. Many of those training in "death squads" to commit terrorist acts, like Al Quaida, are seriously mentally ill and brainwashed youth with good intentions. They live by the sword and will die by the sword, but God has in store for them a resurrection. No matter how serious their sins, they are covered under the ransom sacrifice of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Are you yourself not "judging" here, dear Rick? It is in THIS country, or the western world, that Saddam Hussein and Al-Quaida are "seriously mentally ill," etc. Many in the eastern world think the western world's leader are the sick ones. Personally, I am not afraid of Mr. Hussein: I am not his "enemy" and he has made no threat against me that I am aware of. I'm of the mind that I have greater need to fear the John Muhammed's, Timothy McVeighs and Ted Bundys of this world. However, I do know for a FACT that Mr. Bush has threatened every innocent man, woman and child of Iraq simply by his declaration of war against one man. If he succeeds in engaging war, who will die? Mr. Hussein? Tell me: has Mr. Bin Laden died? Or rather, did several hundred (or thousand) innocent Afghan men, women and children die? If you're going to "judge," dear Rick... at least be fair.
Speculating on who exactly gets destroyed is iffy, at best. Will Manson in San Quentin Prison who I hear is surfing the web from his cell, who knows might even be reading our posts, buy the farm and cease to exist for all eternity because of his heinous crimes? He orchestrated the Sharon Tate murders over 30 years ago. What about others worse than Manson? Will all the vicious criminals sitting on death row be destroyed, or will God resurrect them? Obviously only God knows the answer to this.
Your statement assumes that it is either one or the other, but that is incorrect. ALL of these will be resurrected. Including Hitler, Adam and Eve, Judas, etc. Why? Because... "there will be a resurrection... of the righteous... AND THE UNRIGHTEOUS. The righteous... to a resurrection of life; the UNRIGHTEOUS... to a resurrection... of judgment."
Christians can say with certainty that evil people will be destroyed. Not good people! Not people like any of you! I believe it's likely that not one person who has ever posted to this forum, or ever will post here in the future, will be destroyed. I say this because I have faith that God will only destroy people whose hearts are pure evil.
What you say is partly true... "not good people", which I will venture to say includes almost everyone here. Almost. 99.9%. However, I do not know their hearts; I only know what I "see" displayed here, and none of it is worthy of condemnation to everlasting destruction. However, your last statement that "God will only destroy people whose hearts are pure evil," is again, incorrect. It does not take "pure evil," but simply hatred... and hypocrisy. Think Pharisees. Also, your last statement here kind of contradicts what you said above, because by THIS, you at least acknowledge that SOME will be destroyed. But I must tell you... if 185,000 were wiped out in one night over 4 milleniums ago, and folks then wouldn't even DREAM of doing what some folks do today (think John Muhammed/John Malvo...), then your numbers are skewed. There are WAY more than you can imagine. Thankfully, you are unable to comprehend that, as most folks are... because YOU don't know them... or at least, you don't KNOW that you do.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that some of the "demon" angels who rebelled before the flood, and in more recent times, have repented?
You have to understand something, Rick: you can only "repent" of that which you did not MEAN to do... had no knowledge of its error... or could not HELP doing. This, then, rules out those you speak of, for they were not enslaved by imperfect flesh, and thus were not led by it. They, unlike us, had/have FULL knowledge, PURE intent... and CAN help it... as they are spirit beings. There is no "weakness" of the flesh for them. Which is why WE... are, in fact, though subject to the "groanings" of the flesh... in a MUCH better position than they. The ONLY way that they can be 'saved'... it to eat from the Tree of Life. And my Father has NO intention of permitted that.
What about Satan? Does God have to destroy this angel if he repents?
You don't understand: Satan is not "like" us, in that he has an imperfect vessel which he must try to overcome, and cannot and so must be provided a "ransom." Satan, in fact, is quite instrumental in trying to get those who ARE in such vessels... to turn away from God (think Job; think Christ). And he knows EXACTLY what he is doing; we, however, by are limitation to this realm, are "unknowing" in our understanding of exactly what took place in the spirit realm, when one of the angels of the ark (the "cherub that is covering"), rather than keep his face TOWARD the Propitiatory... turned his face away... because he loved his own self more, because he "beauty" was such that he believed HE should be glorified. HE wanted the place of honor... and STILL wants such place, so that he has chosen to take it from another, Death... versus The Life. And yet, he was a mere servant. Even my Lord, to whom the inheritance BELONGS... was not so presumptuous.
The Bible is silent, only prophesying consequences of Satan's destruction based on assumptions that Satan remain God's enemy, which is most likely. However, reading the Bible from cover to cover reveals a fair God who has dealt judiciously and patiently with rebelling angels and Satan himself.
His patience, dear Rick, was exercised toward the spirit of those HUMANS who sinned... because He knew the origin of their lay with the flesh given them by one man, Adam. As for the spirit BEINGS who sinned... they were reserved in Tartarus for judgment... which judgment will not pass away. It cannot. JUSTICE says it cannot. For if they are given a pass... even as merciful as my Father is, then what WE have gone through since the days of Adam... have been truly unjust on the part of my Father. And it is not so.
Many of you took my post personally because I approached the "horse" from its negative or "flatulent" end.
I am not sure what you are referring to....
Based on what I see, there will not be a lot of casualties.
But your lifespan is but a mere exhalation, a mere, what, 40 something years? So that not all "casualties" would be evident to you, anyway. I don't see them either... but then, I cannot see what the heart is...
God doesn't expect your blind obedience, and will show each one of you the extent of his true glory and love in his due time. Don't be surprised if suddenly you "see" God in the form of something in your life that has no other explanation other than the existence of God.
I absolutely agree with you here... but I also must remind you, in all honesty... that just as there are those who do not wish to "hear"... but "refrain"... there are those who will refuse to see. Our job? Condemn them? Nope. Convert them? Uh-uh. Our job is to continue PRAYING for them... not that they "get it"... but that the Father of my Lord and Christ, the Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies... will be merciful... will grant us the desire of OUR hearts... which is that all those whom WE love... including all those here... will be "saved". Simply by means of our asking. It can be done.
One day, hopefully soon, each one of you who doubts God's existence and true love for you, shall finally appreciate why his son bled to death, the weight of his body ripping the torn flesh of his bony hands as he slowly died on a stake, or was it perhaps a cross.
May it come to be just as you have said it, then. And may the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... come to be upon YOU... if YOU so wish it, if YOU are hearing... and if YOU are thirsting.
(Oy! And may you please forgive my very hasty spelling/grammar/punctuation/word use... yikes! Too many to go back a correct, though...)
As always, I am your servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and a slave of Christ,
SJ
Edited by - AGuest on 31 October 2002 10:40:56
NameWithheld

WHAT SORT OF PEOPLE WILL NOT BE DESTROYED BY GOD?

Possibilities ...
1) All of them(NOT destroyed), since there is no god to do the destroying.
2) Who knows, since god's definition of who he feels like destroying is totally up to him. Maybe he'll be feeling constipated and irritable that day and just decide to wipe out the whole lot of us and create something better. Version 2.0 maybe?
Derrick

Shera wrote:Not a religion,all they had to do was stop what they were doing and walk into an ark or walk away from their immoral lives.I'll say there is some restrictions to live by God's laws.I read the bible and try my best to live by God's word.

I too have always known this was true! Interestingly, Bible opponents on this site and others have used the deaths of mankind except Noah's family in the global deluge, to demonstrate that Jehovah God is unjust and unloving. And yet, the Bible does not say that Noah blocked the entrances to the Ark as the rains began! Anyone with FAITH could have walked right into that Ark. They could have even started their own Ark projects to save themselves and their families!
In fact, after the Ark doors were shut to prevent it from sinking, and the Ark began floating, those doors were permanently sealed. They could not be opened to allow drowning people inside. The walls of the Ark were so high that nobody could scale them. When people realized that everything was going underwater and wanted to get aboard, it was too late.
True, in "hindsight," one could have anticipated this and provided rope ladders to scale the Ark's walls after it lifted off the ground. However, why would Noah take time away from building the Ark to create these ladders when it was clear that nobody was willing to believe him? Imagine if you were on an aircraft carrier sized ship sitting on dry ground, with a door and ramp hear the ground to load cargo. The walls of this vessel were perhaps 8-10 storeys high and smooth with no ladders or any recesses to allow climbing.
Actual real-life scenario: Once the door on the side is sealed, this giant aircraft carrier vessell sits on dry ground as it starts to rain. Tens of thousands of people stand around as Noah and family look down on them from the deck that is 8-10 storeys off the ground. It starts to rain. The rain gets worse. People look at each other in disbelief and the laughter and namecalling starts to subdue itself. AND THE FLOOD CAME AND SWEPT THEM ALL AWAY. A flash flood several feet high, perhaps from the north, comes racing toward the Ark. People start to run in panic. After the initial flood surge, the waters rise and the Ark with all its billions of pounds of weight starts to slowly tilt. Noah and his family look down in horror as a few remaining screaming, drowning people pound on the sides of this overwhelmingly huge sea vessel. However, opening those doors would not only cause the Ark to flood in its hull, but the water pressure would make it impossible to open that large cargo hold door! Not being able to scale the vertical sides of this massive vessel, those not swept away from the initial pre-flood surge start drowning. Only Noah and his family are safely aboard.
Possible alternate scenario: Many people believe Noah and dozens of parallel Ark projects are underway. As the cargo hold doors are ready to lift, a few last minute stragglers run inside. The preceding actual real-life scenario commences, and multitudes of people who are trapped outside the Arks meet the terrible fate of drowning. However, tens of thousands of people chose to join Noah. A caravan of Arks are taken across the flood waters into the new world.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I knew this but it hadn't really hit me until you commented, like it did.
Derrick
Derrick

I would like to have the faith you display, maybe it would make my life better. But since I cannot see the proof of what you say just yet, I will have to play the waiting game.

That's ok, you're only human. Just be sure to run inside the "Ark" before the doors are tightly shut. At some point, IOW, you have to make a decision.
Derrick
DannyBear

***Possible alternate scenario: Many people believe Noah and dozens of parallel Ark projects are underway. As the cargo hold doors are ready to lift, a few last minute stragglers run inside. The preceding actual real-life scenario commences, and multitudes of people who are trapped outside the Arks meet the terrible fate of drowning. However, tens of thousands of people chose to join Noah. A caravan of Arks are taken across the flood waters into the new world.***
Been visiting the local 'head' shop lately Rick?
Are you, or do you consider yourself still 'ONE OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES'????
You really should be honest with us, playing around with our sensibilties is cruel an unusal punishment. Of course from your raving's, I truly believe you do not know where your coming or going from. Iam I right?
I really want to know.
Danny
Derrick

Downunderandout wrote:I am new here, please tell me are you a active un-d' JW and if so why do you post here. If not, what is your story.

Baptized in the mid-1970's in southern California I'm presently an inactive JW. My story is that I was approached at the door on a Saturday morning in my mid-teens, coincidentally the morning after I attempted suicide (and perhaps hours before I had planned to try again). I had a childhood full of death, alcoholism and divorce throughout the family and relatives. We were affluent but I hated Christmas, as no abundance of material goods under the tree could fill the emptiness in my life. The sister that came to my door with the book The Truth That Leads To Eternal Life brought me hope. I can't describe the feeling other than to say that it was like coming out of a state of amnesia and "remembering" that mankind and the Earth was destined for greatness and glory. God allowed unhappiness, despair and suffering on Earth for a reason, and that reason was to give generation after generation the chance to be born and receive eternal life as a free undeserved and unearned gift from his Son, Jesus Christ. I became a very well known member of the congregation and loved the preaching work, seeing the looks of hope on depressed people when they heard what was in store for them in the future. It brought joy to me to see peoples faces light up when they discovered they would be reunited with those they loved who had died, in a future paradise where Heaven and Earth become as one. I was very fortunate to be in a very strong district of JWs. I had so many true friends that there was overflow seating in the parking lot with loud speakers on my wedding day. I'll never forget how the brothers didn't charge me or even hint that I should pay one dime for this wedding service at the Kingdom Hall! Looking back, I should have donated something to cover the basic expenses, and maybe in the blurr of the moment, my wife and I did donate something. I honestly can't remember anything in that regard except that they genuinely wanted the entire wedding to be a free gift to us. I was very fortunate as a teen, marrying a lovely hearted sister who was beautiful inside and out. I was thankful that my first experience sexually with anyone was with her on our wedding night. That may seem odd to many today, and being in my early 40's, perhaps that important detail has more importance with my generation than more recent generations. However, I honestly think that many young ones may never admit it, but they too want their first experience with someone they love on their wedding night. It's just not "cool" to admit it. (We divorced 5 years later even though I believe we still love each other.) I see that I digressed! As I was saying about my experiences as a JW, they were mostly good and taught me self-discipline, self-respect, self-esteem and "old fashioned" values so unpopular in the 1970's on through today. I met some cults in the kingdom ministry, and going into the mountainous wilderness where they lived to witness to them. There are so many unusual experiences that I could write a book. Anyway, you asked "what is your story?" and that's it in a nutshell. What is your story?
Derrick
Beck_Melbourne

Derrick
Downunder isn't online at the moment, I'll show her your response as she may want to post a reply to you over the weekend (our weekend starts now )
Btw...first time I've read your story... interesting.
~Beck~
Derrick

Beck_Melbourne wrote:Downunder isn't online at the moment, I'll show her your response as she may want to post a reply to you over the weekend (our weekend starts now )
Btw...first time I've read your story... interesting.

I appreciate that.
Perhaps you might like to share your story?
Derrick
Beck_Melbourne

Perhaps you might like to share your story?
Sorry I did not respond straight away...only just saw your response now. My story is so dull its hardly worth mentioning...and I've said so much about my jw to exjw transition in my posts that it almost feels like my story is now redundant. But here goes:
Born into borg 3rd generation. Raised in a divided household by dominating JW mother and grandmother....father was non-believer and he preferred to leave everything up to our mother to screw up our childhood....he just sat back and let it happen. By 16 I was living the typical double life....going to meetings and FS with a smile and a fake spirituality just to keep the peace...yet secretly I had a worldly boyfriend and was smoking cigarettes - OHHHH how bad was I??? Long story short...mother found out and kicked me out of the house UNLESS I would give up smoking and the worldly boyfriend and would pioneer. So I found myself with no where to go, no money, no job, nothing! Worldy boyfriend's parents were witnesses with good hearts....they collected me and made me part of their home and family. Consequently, worldly boyfriend soon became husband just after my 18th birthday...an obligation to his parents and what seemed to be the right thing to do. To keep a happy relationship between inlaws and ourselves, we decided to study again....eventually getting baptised and began our continuation of the cycle by raising our kids in the borg. From MS to Elder, hubby kept reaching out and became a fanatic to the point of unreasonable....lost his balance along the way. Kids were reciting books of the bible and scriptures before they were 3 years old....as a family we had parts at every circuit and district convention...drama parts...and many family or couple demonstrations - the PERFECT family! Hubby's fanatical behaviour continued....I was counselled many times by his 'brothers in arms' (ie. Elders) for watching shows like Knotts Landing, a soapie with immorality - WTF?? I was councelled for buying new furniture without my hubby's consent, as the time of the end was SO near - again, WTF??? I was councelled for letting the kids take part in a school play that just happened to be about a Christmas Tree, kids were removed and I was overlooked for a part in the upcoming circuit assembly. After 14 yrs of being married to Artilla the Hun I gave up...I just wanted an ordinary life....a life where I didn't have to ask permission for everything I wore, or said, or how my children behaved. Being an Elder's wife sux. I wrote to DA myself in the summer of 98 and I left my now ex hubby and moved from New Zealand to Australia to avoid the shunning that was to follow...and to avoid all the pitiful glances as all my dub friends thought I'd lost the plot. I moved away...started a new life....I even have a new name. I am now free of the borg's influence on both myself and my children. We no longer feel guilty for living an ordinary life...we are no longer bound to the false doctrines of the WT and we have never been happier
The end. And my apologies for the long read. Hugs.
~Beck~

NOT DESTROYED !

Share this