I am certainly no defender of Watchtower chronology and suspect that the 586 bc date for the destruction of Jerusalem is correct. However, one must understand how the system worked. When a nation became dominant in the area as Babylon did somewhere around 605, the smaller nation states quickly made deals with the larger power and were allowed to govern themselves contingent on the paying of "tribute". It also involved an exchange of court personnel (read hostages) meant to guarantee the continued subservience and payment of tribute. That is likely the way that the Jewish hero Daniel came to be in Babylon. However, the Jews were a "stiff necked and stubborn people" and prone to rebellion. I don't have my reference source, having loaned it out, but I seem to recall that the Babylonians dealt with the initial rebellion by replacing the King, taking the more valuable citizens into slavery, and installing a Govenor. After a second rebellion, they "kicked ass and took names" and destroyed the City. The net result is that folks trying to make a case for a "magic date" could just about pick any date between 586 b.c. and 605 b.c. and find some academic support for it.
597 bce or 607 bce !
by Dizzy Cat 23 Replies latest jw friends
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tonyend
I second that thought about reading "The Gentile Times Reconsidered". Excellent reading. On Amazon got it with "The Sign of the Last Days-When?" at a good price.
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scholar
Dizzy Cat
Your inquiry concerning the chronology for the Fall of Jerusalem is somewhat problematic. The majority of scholars prefer the dates 586 or 587 for this event. The Society has calculated that according to the biblical record, the date should be fixed at 607 BCE. This calcuable date is in accordance with some of the the secular evidence and an exegesis of the seventy years, The other 'dead end ' dates are attested by available secular evidence and an exegesis of the seventy years. The choice is yours as to which of the dates is the best 'fit'. I prefer 607 because of its prophetic, theological and historioghraphical significance. It is entirely false to assume that some how 607 is not a worthy and trustworthy candidate for the Fall of Jerusalem.
scholar
BA MA Studies in Religion, University of Sydney, Australia
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undercover
Scholar says:
The majority of scholars prefer the dates 586 or 587 for this event. The Society has calculated that according to the biblical record, the date should be fixed at 607 BCE. This calcuable date is in accordance with some of the the secular evidence and an exegesis of the seventy years,
What is some of this evidence? The only 607 "evidence" I have seen comes from the Society. Everything else I have seen secularly says otherwise. I would like to see "some of the secular evidence". -
jws
Scholar,
Your inquiry concerning the chronology for the Fall of Jerusalem is somewhat problematic. The majority of scholars prefer the dates 586 or 587 for this event. The Society has calculated that according to the biblical record, the date should be fixed at 607 BCE. This calcuable date is in accordance with some of the the secular evidence and an exegesis of the seventy years, The other 'dead end ' dates are attested by available secular evidence and an exegesis of the seventy years. The choice is yours as to which of the dates is the best 'fit'. I prefer 607 because of its prophetic, theological and historioghraphical significance. It is entirely false to assume that some how 607 is not a worthy and trustworthy candidate for the Fall of Jerusalem.
According to the biblical record? How so? The biblical record even disagrees with the WBTS. Jeremiah 25:12 says "after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon". If the king of Babylon was punished in 539 BC, how could 70 years end 2 years later in 537 BC? 70 years ended in 539, making the start 609BC. Is 607 - 537 in harmony with the Bible? Obviously NOT.
Jeremiah 25:11 says "these nations shall SERVE the king of Babylon seventy years". They were obviously serving before the fall of Zedekiah. In 2 Kings 24:1, it says "Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up, and Jehoiakim became his servant three years; then he turned and rebelled against him." (Three years because he was then deposed). But the rest of that chapter talks about rebellions. Servants rebel, not free countries. The word "rebel" shows a master/slave relationship. In 2 Kings 25:17, Nebuchadnezzar even makes Mattani'ah king and changes his name to Zedekiah. Jews not serving Babylon? Yup! Good ol' Mattani'ah sounds real independent. Really stood up for himself! Reminds me of when they renamed Kunta Kinte to Toby in Roots. Jerusalem was already serving. So, 70 years of serving the king of Babylon starts long before the final destruction of Jerusalem. If the WBTS chronology is correct, this servitude began about 20 years before 607. So, according to WBTS, they served about 90 years. Is that in harmony with the Bible and Jeremiah 25:11? Obviously not.
Jeremiah 29:10 says "When seventy years are completed FOR Babylon", which could easily mean they would be dominant. History says Nabopolasar won freedom from the Assyrians in 609 BC and then became the dominant nation, free from being dominated by others. That is until 539 BC. 70 years later. This "seventy years for Babylon" seems to fit right in.
When looking for an explaination of 70 years, one can find a view that syncs both with history AND the Bible and that view says Jerusalem fell in 586/587 BC. An explaination that says it fell in 607BC does NOT harmonize with ANY secular evidence and does NOT harmonize with the Bible. It is only a means to get to a date of 1914, which, if you read any history of the subject, failed to fulfill anything that was prophesied. So why stick to it?
This will no-doubt not sway your view. But please post your pro-607 evidence. Post something other than a spin on Bible verses. Post historical evidence. Or refute the Babylonian Chronicles and astronomical tablets. Prove they can be dated about 20 years earlier.
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scholar
jws and undercover
The Society in many of its publications has explained how the date 607 is calculated. The evidence for this date ids based on the fall of Babylon which is determined by secular evidence. Next, there is the reckonong for the time when the Jews were released by the decree of Cyrus in 537 which thus fulfilled seventy years which must have began in 607. Obviously there is evidence for these historic events as these constitute biblical history. The chronology of the seventy years is a matter of exegesis. Scholars do not have a definitive view about this event. Of course, you have your own understanding of such matters, that is fine but please give the Society a little credit for providing a simple methodology for determining the fate for the fall of Jeruslalem
The subject of the Gentile Times ending in 1914 cannot be easily dismissed. There is much attention in recent commentaries on Daniel concerning the theology of Nebuchadnessar's vision as decribed in Daniel 4. Further, there is material in Early CChristian historiography regarding Luke and observations regarding eschatology in the use of the eschaton pertaining to Luke 21;24.
Finally, no one can be dogmatic about any date in the biblical history. Chronology is not an exact science but relies on available materials, the interpretations thereof and exegesis of the biblical accounts. 607 in my opinion is rock solid, 587 and 586 are dead end attempts that approximate a reconstruction of the late period of the Judean monarchy.
scholar
BA MA Studies in Religion, University of Sydney, Australia
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AlanF
Yet another contentless reply from that braindead JW "scholar". LOL!
AlanF
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PopeOfEruke
AlanF,
I agree....I mean, University of Sydney?? If it said University of Melbourne then maybe.....
Pope
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scholar
Alan F and Pope Of Eruke
It is amazing that people who have nothing worthwhile to say resort to sarcasm. It is well known Alan F that you do not possess any original thinking regarding chronology. Your hostili6ty to the WT chronology is solely derived by your own admission to the Jonsson hypothesis. Thus you are intellectually bankrupt. As for the other fellow he would not know the difference between the university of Sydney or Melbourne
scholar
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undercover
there is the reckonong for the time when the Jews were released by the decree of Cyrus in 537 which thus fulfilled seventy years which must have began in 607. Obviously there is evidence for these historic events as these constitute biblical history.
Where is this evidence? It's not obvious to me. I'm sorry but I don't have a degree in religion. I'm not that smart. Lay it all out for me.