I just wanted to go ahead and add this thread I created on this topic a few weeks back, in which I pulled from 'usenet':
Real EVIL - the Watchtower and the Nazis. Blood.
by Focus 51 Replies latest jw friends
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sf
Jim,
Did you not see my question to you above?
sKally
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sf
Excellent! Thank you.
sKally...1959 class
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sf
A few 'hits':
Shofar FTP Archives: people/f/felderer.ditlieb
Shofar FTP Archive Directory: people/f/felderer.ditlieb. File Name,
Date, Size. holocaust-denial-today, Mon Jan 1 00:00:00 1996, 30443. ...
www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/f/felderer.ditlieb - 5k - Cached - Similar pageswww.REVISIONISTS.com -- Meet Ditlieb Felderer
Ditlieb Felderer. Background: Felderer, at one time a prominent Jehovah's
Witness, is known as an early researcher into the physical ...
www.revisionists.com/revisionists/felderer.html - 4k - Cached - Similar pages( http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=Ditlieb+Felderer )
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Focus
Jim, I told you that I am very familiar with the matter.
Rizoli wrote:
I'm beyond the Jw stage here, [you Focus are] only on step one
You are being unclear in your words. If you are implying I ever was one of Jehovah's Witnesses (and am still in stage 1 of recovery) upon whose statement(s) do you base this?
Or, if you are implying my knowledge of the background to these matters is limited (by reference to, say, Kent's) - well, you are wrong.
Ditlieb Felderer
Really? A reliable source? Felderer is known to me to be the guy who was a non-hostile witness for the defense in the trial of the disgusting Holocaust-denier Ernst Zundel: read about this here on Zundel's own repulsive "Holocaust Minimization" website. Take a puke bag, gentle reader.
I am very familiar with the actions of Zundel and his sort...
Among other things, ex-jW Felderer had published:
Please Accept This HAIR OF A GASSED VICTIM!
* NEXT TIME YOU CUT YOUR HAIR, DO NOT DISCARD IT! NO, MAIL IT INSTEAD TO MR. SMOLEN AT THE AUSCHWITZ MUSEUM OR TO ANY OF THE ADDRESSES FOUND ON THE NEXT PAGE - TO BE EXHIBITED IN THE DISPLAY OF HAIR OF GASSED VICTIMS. YOU HAIR HAS A MUCH BETTER CLAIM TO BE EXHIBITED THERE THAN THE PHONY SAMPLES OF COMMERCIAL WIGS AND HAIR HITHERTO EXHIBITED. ALSO COLLECT TOGETHER THE HAIR OF ALL YOUR FRIENDS, DOGS, AND OTHER ANIMALS. SEND IT ALL IN A PLASTIC BAG TO MR. SMOLEN. HE WILL REMEMBER YOU FOR IT. IT CAN BE MAILED AS "PRINTED MATTER" BY PLACING THE TERM "SAMPLE" ON THE PRECIOUS DELIVERY.
TO: Mr. K. Smolen and Staff, Auschwitz Museum, Oswiecim, Poland
Dear Mr. Smolen,
In appreciation of your deep concern for gassed victims, I am hereby forwarding my personal trophy for your permanent Museum exhibits. I understand that you are intensely involved with the subject of gassing. Personally I feel rather miserable. Not even Zyklon B would cure me!Truly disgraceful garbage. Zyklon B has been shown beyond any reasonable doubt to be the principal gas used to kill Jews in the gas chambers and mobile extermination units. Felderer's justification (in Court) of this as comprising "satire" adds insult to injury. The Watchtower were right to remove Felderer. However, whether they did it for the correct reason is questionable: Felderer would have ended up embarrassing them no end, and that became apparent to the Borg.
So what is your point? This issue is irrelevant to the analysis of the Watchtower and the Nazis, Jim. Felderer (obviously!) had no role WHATSOEVER to play in the quoted 1933-4 Watchtower publications and other racist materials emanating from the Watchtower around that time. And, sadly, the world is full of Holocaust deniers. They are either crazy, or wicked, or seriously deluded, or some combination thereof. To give them more publicity and oxygen is no intention of mine.
To state that not many jWs were murdered by the Nazis is a fact. To state that anything other than an enormous number of Jews, Romany people, homosexuals etc. were murdered by the Nazis is vile defamation. I take it you concur, Jim.
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Focus
(Anti-Defamation League Class)[Edited as I see sf has been busy too, and so probably does not need various other links I have ready when identifying and refuting Holocaust-Deniers]
Edited by - Focus on 3 November 2002 14:2:4
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Kenneson
Focus,
You mention the Watchtower Observer site in passing, I mentioned it because of the number of articles on the topic I found there. I wasn't intending to offend you. Sorry if I did.
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Focus
Dear Kenneson:
I wasn't intending to offend you. Sorry if I did.
Of course you were not, and of course I wasn't offended* in the tiniest bit!
But thank you for your kindness.
What did you make of the issue?
Watchtower Observer's site is a mass (and morass) of valuable information to the researcher, and a store to which I have contributed - but it can be intimidating to the casual browser or lazy semi-jW. I present articles rather as does my friend Norm, in byte-size (or perhaps even bite-size) chunks.
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Focus
(Amityville Class)* Dealing, from time to time as I must, with various Spiritual-Pimps who support the Watchtower's fiendish agenda, I speak directly. Amazing as it may sound, some bystanders misconstrue what I write as being a little aggressive (preferring the gentleness of the Watchtower message, which in summary is "Join us immediately and enter into lifelong slavery or our Leader will soon swoop down and massacre you and your little children"). Of course, that is an error you would not make. I am but a mild puss, snoozing in the sun until aroused.
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CoolBreeze
I'm totaly lost here ... Most of this stuff I allready knew from my own research. What I'm lost about here what Jim and focus are disagreeing about. All I see is a bunch of inuendo and veiled statements. Will somone please clue me in???? Maybe I just need more coffee.
Anton
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sf
Roflololol! Oh kontraire FOCUS...
Links please. Everything you got. Hold nothing back from The sKallywagger. Even Tom Knows 'this'.
sKally
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Focus
CoolBreeze wrote:
I'm totaly lost here ... Most of this stuff I allready knew from my own research. What I'm lost about here what Jim and focus are disagreeing about. All I see is a bunch of inuendo and veiled statements. Will somone please clue me in????
... AntonI really do not know what Jim is on about either!
No innuendo or veiled statements from me, as you will have observed (maybe some Progressive Revelation, I grant you, but not related to what Jim seems to be on about).
1. I published the article. No real New Light in it, just a collation of provable facts, threaded together logically. Extra material (compared to the Watchtower Observer repository) included:
* "pro-jW" sentiments (expressions of admiration, perhaps grudging, perhaps not) from SS Chief Himmler; and
* my own analysis of Hitler's Mein Kampf, showing the concurrence of some of the sentiments and beliefs expressed therein with what the Watchtower placed in the 1933-4 literature, refuting their later claim that they did not fully know what the Nazis were about;
* a better compilation of racist Watchtower kookery; and
* some very minor corrections to the translations from German.2. Rizoli commented on Nov 2, 2002 23:36:
.. your understanding of what transpired in Germany is not corrrect.
If you really would like to see my research on the matter I will be glad to show you, I will do it off line and personal.
I've done some pretty intense research on the subject matter, and came across the brother who was used by WT to do research on the JW's who were in the camps, and when he presented his findings to Bethel they were not too happy with his conclusions.
The numbers didn't jive with what the WT was telling everyone in their literature, so to not look like liars they Dfd him and his information was not seen by the rank and file JW, and obviously not by you.
I have seen his information and it opened my eyes to a lot more than just what happened to the JW's.
If your interested let me know.3. When pressed for more, by sf, and being replied to by myself, Jim told me on Nov 3, 2002 12:29:
I'm beyond the Jw stage here, [you Focus are] only on step one, your research has reached a dead end, old hat as they say. [snip] your just scratching the surface. To be quite honest with you I don't trust you with anything I have to say, because whatever I say you will misconstrue it.
and, then 27 minutes later, Jim supplied the name of "Ditlieb Felderer", together with (IMHO) a very flattering and materially incomplete thumbnail description of Felderer:Ditlieb Felderer was born in a Nazi internment district in in 1942. His mother was of Jewish descent and religiously a Jehovahs Witness. To escape persecution, his family hiked over the mountains into . They lived there as refugees for many years until the emigrated to Sweden when his parents felt that sufficient time had passed after the end of the war and the internment. Felderer himself became interested in the Holocaust at age 13 in 1955 (Lenski 129). He did not begin to visit camps and conduct his extensive research until 1976, when he was working for the Jehovahs Witness publication Awake!
During this time, Felderer was assigned research on the history of the Jehovahs Witnesses and their internment by the Nazis during World War II. When he began his initial research on the holocaust, it was thought that 60,000 Jehovahs Witnesses were killed by the Nazis in death camps. After visiting the headquarters o the Jehovahs Witnesses in and the archives in , and the Scandinavian countries, Felderer discovered that in actuality, only approximately 200 Jehovahs Witnesses were killed. These findings upset the leadership of the sect and members were warned not to talk to Felderer.
He was actually DF'd for his findings. In a later Jehovahs Witness Yearbook, the leadership acknowledged Felderers research and conceded that only 200 were killed in death camps. But too late he was out on his ass!
The assumption has to be that Felderer is the person about whom Jim was speaking, apparently approvingly but perhaps ironically, in the Nov 2, 2002 23:36 post.4. Perhaps Jim was only trying to provoke more research. I pointed out that, as Jim obviously must know already (having told us many times that my understandings are incorrect and he has abetter insight) - and as I did:
(a) Felderer is a notorious and thoroughly discredited revisionist Holocaust-denier, having been convicted of at least one related crime and who is the author of some of the most nauseous material which minimizes Nazi guilt; and
(b) Felderer was completely irrelevant to the matters raised in the lead post of this thread, as he was only 3 years old at the time the Nazis were beaten (the WT material pandering to Hitler having been written 9 years before Felderer was born), and Felderer had not done any of his "scientific analysis work" until 1976, i.e. well after the time of the Watchtower's 1960, 1963, 1973 and 1974 (whose Yearbook entry shifted the blame falsely from Brooklyn to the German JW Balzereit, a smear only 24 years later retracted by the WTS) publications on this subject.5. I wrote:
.. the world is full of Holocaust deniers. They are either crazy, or wicked, or seriously deluded, or some combination thereof. To give them more publicity and oxygen is no intention of mine.
To state that not many jWs were murdered by the Nazis is a fact. To state that anything other than an enormous number of Jews, Romany people, homosexuals etc. were murdered by the Nazis is vile defamation. I take it you concur, Jim.
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Focus
(Anti-Defamation League Class)
To know where I am coming from, I should add that I have done work - anonymously - for the Nizkor Project in the past, and have completely satisfied myself - having looked at any amount of published evidence from "both sides" - that the Holocaust certainly occurred and that, in all major aspects, occurred as the major history books say it did.6. Jim replied on Nov 3, 2002 14:39, edited on 3 November 2002 14:40:26, 14:45:8 and 14:54:27, that I had proved his point that he was quite right not to trust me (which is of course his prerogative), and:
I won't even bother to discuss this issue with you It's obviously where your comming from.
> Foscus said "They are either crazy, or wicked, or seriously deluded, or some combination thereof.
This statement sounds like you. ^
Your a sick puppy man!
How extraordinary! Which of my sentiments suggest I am crazy, wicked or seriously deluded sick puppy?7. I repeat:
To state that not many jWs were murdered by the Nazis is a fact. To state that anything other than an enormous number of Jews, Romany people, homosexuals etc. were murdered by the Nazis is vile defamation.You are obviously too clever for one or both of us, so please expand. If this is a Gullibility Test, may I make it clear that I really have no idea of what Jim's immuendo or veiled statements are about.
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Focus
("Enquiry Mode" Class)ps: Dear sf and Tom - all will be satisfied in a little while. And yes, Tom, it took one crazy fanatic Himmler to recognize an organization founded on crazy fanaticism (for the rank and file, that is).
Edited by - Focus on 3 November 2002 16:34:41