Two witness rule IS A MAJOR PROBLEM

by LFitzwater 41 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Hello Farkel,

    If little Suzie was baptized, she might well be disfellowshipped. Her mother would also face disfellowshipping for "slander" according to Watchtower Dark Ages Rules(tm).

    Right Farkel. But oppositely, if 'little Suzie' is not baptized, Suzie has no chance for justice. The reason is she is not a 'baptized' JW so her testimony in a judicial hearing is diminished, like totally discarded, because she is not an official member of the congregation. According to the KMS book an unbaptized person's testimony can be considered against a baptized JW but the implication is the testimony carries little weight. Add to this the fact that the non-jw witness to wrong doing is also a minor child, then you likely do not have a 'credible witness' to wrongdoing. It stinks, but that is the policy.

    Laurie has shown that the two witness requirement was met. So why no apparent action, not even an announcement of "public reproof"? I can only guess, the 17 victims the CO referred to did not meet the requirements of a 'credible witness'.

    The credible witness issue may be more of a problem then the 'two witness' issue.

    Jst2laws

  • gumby
    gumby

    According to the flock book, since little Suzie (who is only 8 years old) is not visibly pregnant (Doh!), then that scientific evidence is not sufficient for the congregation to expel the pervert.

    Simple solution for this.

    You find the sonofabitch alone, and beat the piss out of him and tell him if he shows his face any where near your city again, he'll never walk again! Then if you do see him again you break his legs.

    Seriously folks.....how in the hell do parents to whom this has happened to ....NOT do what I said. I cannot fathom the anger parents must go through. Could you EVER and I man EVER sit in a kingdom hall with a man as Farkel just described and NOT react??? Jesus!!!

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    This is a great thread.

    Laurie:

    Can you send a copy of this letter, or post it somewhere so that this hypocrisy can be exposed for all to see?

    Thanks

  • TR
    TR

    Hi Laurie,

    How much time does perv/Dan have left in prison? Any Idea when he gets out?

    Farkel,

    When liars like J.R. Brown says the WTS "abhors child abuse" and they take "aggressive steps" to deal with it, I'm sitting here wondering what the fuck he thinks he means by that.

    Farkel

    Indeed, I want to know what the "aggressive steps" are. I have yet to see them, probably because they don't exist.

    TR

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    TR,

    Indeed, I want to know what the "aggressive steps" are. I have yet to see them, probably because they don't exist.

    When the bros would still talk to me I used to quote JR Brown to the elders and then ask them, "Now tell me, what are the first three "steps" of properly handling a case of child molestation?"

    It usually causes a little anxiety, searching their memory, and then an admission that they would have to look that up. Which should make them wonder about JR's comments that they have an "agressive" program when the boys in the field don't even know what the program is.

    Bottom line TR, I was just playing with the boys because there are no three steps are even two steps. Just one step, immediately call the WT legal department. If there were three steps, step two would be do whatever legal tells you to do, and step three is don't tell anyone you got your instructions from the WT.

    Does that sound like the approach Jesus would take?

    Jst2laws

  • TR
    TR

    jst2laws,

    That's what I thought.

    TR

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    jst2laws,

    What is so sad about all this is that the scriptures are taking a beating that they do not deserve. There is no such thing as a two witness rule when it comes to crime such as child abuse and anyone that uses this a defense to protect the accused simply does not understand scripture. Even the Watchtower admits in its own literature that such verses do not apply to serious sin or crimes. But then they act and counsel differently to protect their illusion of righteousness. Enough material on this topic is now available both on this board and in the Silent Lambs research section on their board to put this false application of scripture to rest permanently. Elders beware, the WT has arranged their material in such a way that the Elders themselves will take the fall should this become a legal matter. The truth is that crimes like child abuse should be reported to the civil authorities only as this is their jurisdiction not the faith's. Joseph

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    A BIG Thank You again to jst2laws, JosephMalik, and everyone else for their awesome research on these "Two-Witness" Threads!

    jst2laws said:

    Bottom line TR, I was just playing with the boys because there are no three steps are even two steps. Just one step, immediately call the WT legal department. If there were three steps, step two would be do whatever legal tells you to do, and step three is don't tell anyone you got your instructions from the WT.

    Does that sound like the approach Jesus would take?

    What did Jesus say about people who hurt Children?

    Matthew 18:6: but whoever causes one of these little children who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him that a huge millstone should be hung around his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depths of the sea.

    What is going to happen to unrepentant evil-doers?

    Revelation 20:10: The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur, where the Beast and the False Prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 5 November 2002 0:37:41

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    oopppsss!!!

    Edited by - VeniceIT on 8 November 2002 19:1:59

  • BruceBaker
    BruceBaker

    Even though this is my first post, my daughter Venice has shared some of mine and my wife's concerns & thoughts in the last 2 years on the web.

    We have fully supported Silentlambs from the very beginning, spending 100's upon 100's of hours behind the scenes on the phone, with the Silentlambs co-founders & others. We were at the Candlelight Vigil, the March on W.T.S., a Court Appearance, TV & newspaper interviews promoting the March & Silentlambs in general. I believe the time, money & energy invested has been worth every penny.

    Just as the rest of you feel about your personal investment in the support of victims which Silentlambs represents. I know our families contribution isn't nearly what others have given. esp. the founders of Silentlambs, but the involvement has had a major impact on me for the good as I will soon explain.

    (Just think of the cost of the March itself, 10's of thousands in travel, motels, etc. by 125 & supporters and hundreds more who were there in spirit, & would have been if finances and time would have allowed.)

    No other movement has even scratched the surface in regard to impact on WTS; Worldwide media coverage is continuing to grow in Australia, S. America, Hong Kong, Canada, Europe & USA.

    The 1st 2 min of Dateline exposed the US vs Them attitude of the WTS for example their arrogance in the 'they' will all die at Armageddon teaching. There have been many benefits from this expose, it would be great to see a list.

    The Silentlambs cause is mainly about one thing, the victims of molesters & WTS policy, whether it's not reporting or the 2 witness policy, etc. Silentlambs is driven by a lot of heart and soul along with raw dedication. One of the key reasons for me starting to post is the downplaying by some of the 2 witness rule.

    I applaud Lori Fitzwater's and AlanF comments on 11/03/02 . Undermining the 2 witness rule in the slightest way is striking at the very heart of the Silentlambs cause. The not reporting is obvious and often the end result organizationally. The above posts here hit at the very foundation of the non reporting problem. I would like to add to their very concise and straightforward posts.

    First of all you cannot judicially engage our dear brother unless he admits to it, or 2 or more witnesses come forward in a very credible and convincing fashion. I have never heard of a confession without witness! I have heard a lot about this in my 40+ years as a JW & my 25 years as an elder, even though some on the GB haven't.

    One case I was involved in was handled in 24 hours, from start to disfellowshipping. The confessing came ONLY because of multiple witnesses, plain and simple (& a very focused committee)

    If we had less then 2 witnesses he no doubt would have walked, being able to move from congregation to congregation all because of why???? The '2 witness rule'. This is paramount, the reporting only comes later in an elders mindset due to training etc. Secondary, on top of this I had 2 police at my door threatening me with a $2,000.00 a day fine each day I did not report. WTS attorney was telling not to report "trust in Jah's org." I said "are you going to pay the fine & court costs, it's easy for you back in NY", fortunately I was off the hook after 2 days because a victims DF'd father made enough of a report. WTS attorney Greg Olds sent me a clever letter a week later.

    Another case I was involved in was with a young mother in her 30's retrieving a vivid memory of molestation. The detail and multiple occasions were hideous and cruel. The service dept. gave us the OK to approach the accused. Since we did not have a second witness he could deny it and did! She became very upset and depressed that she brought it out and now not believed, the whole family in turmoil and now she was under scrutiny! A few months later she drove her car into the path of a cement truck, killing herself and 2 small children. You can figure out the rest.

    Ohh sure she could have reported the accused but would you have without the support of the cong. and most of your family and more witnesses. The two witness rule was AGAIN the main problem. The service dept. told us to drop it without more witnesses. I will never forget the look on her face when reality sank into this young lady's mind and heart!!! We will never find out if the accused was guilty since the police did not find out, due to the 2 witness rule. He later moved to another congregation.

    Feeling the impact of just these 2 cases and talking with many victims the last 2 years makes me sick that I ever was part of the org. not to mention everything else that's evil and perverted about it.

    I hereby formally apologize to any and all individuals I sat in judgment of when a member of that org. We had no business judging anyone on morals or anything else!!!!

    Being on the Oregon Regional Building Committee for 15 yrs, City Overseer (16 yrs), Assembly Overseer (16 yrs), District Convention Committee (10 yrs), Chairman of the hospital liaison committee, and Presiding Overseer and Regular pioneer for years, is a lot of REFUSE now!!!

    I'm embarrassed it took me until I was 50 years old to finally see the light, to wake up, to think outside the box, to really care about people as people, not people as part of an org.

    To be choked up and cry inside when you hear Erica Garza's story first hand at a sentencing hearing--listening to Holly Barry's CD 'Rape & Rage', to read how she was tied up by her molester and ravaged for years. To see on Panorama the room in the barn her father took her to be raped & molested year after year. The more involved you become the more emotion swells up inside along with feeling the victims pain.

    Lori Fitzwater feels the pain because she knows the victims pain! She is therefore much more of an expert on this then any eloquent poster on any forum or any elder of any position in the org. Bill Bowen has 1000's of hours listening, cataloging & supporting Victims. You expect him not to get passionate, upset, and on occasion lose it. Passion sometimes affects ones better judgment.

    He has been eating, sleeping and breathing this for 2 years. How many of us would have had the drive, tenacity, guts and courage to take on a multi-billion dollar Religious Corp.

    He has had incredible support from many the board knows nothing about, along with all the involved obvious support from so many of you. I would like to encourage all Silentlambs supporters to maintain full support regardless of human frailty and personal limitations. This is not only the best game in town but the only game in town.

    It would be great to hear about the other cases that slipped away do to the 2 witness rule. I know there has to be 100's if not 1000's. There is nothing more powerful than to hear the victim tell us!

    Also I believe that Legislatures need to remove the statute of limitations on sex crimes, everywhere!

    Bruce Baker

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