peace

by Realist 32 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  joannadandy

  There was a march at my university on Thursday for Peace. A large crowd turned up. Another crowd also showed up to heckle them, and lob nasty insults. And that scares me. Our own country is so divided on this issue, how could we possibly ask the rest of the world to be united with us? If none of you here can smell another Vietnam in the works, you're cracked.

  Saddam is a bad guy. I will be the first to admit that. But getting rid of him is going to solve NOTHING! Do you people realize what the political climate is like over there? There are a million would-be leaders who would all love to step in after Saddam is gotten rid of, each of them are all just as bad, if not worse than Saddam. The only problem is Saddam is too powerful for them to come to power.

  Bush never talks about what will happen after the war. Doesn't that bother any of you? With Saddam gone, our problems will be over, for a little bit it would seem. But the turmoil that is gonna be thrown on these people who are already living in the rubble we helped create will be too much. We're only going piss of a people who hate us already even more. The next leader they get could be ten times worse than Saddam. We just don't know.

  All Bush talks about is the threat Saddam poses to us. If I just for once heard him talk about what would help these people who are in far more immediate danger than we are, I would feel a little bit better. But ya know what, before he got elected Bush admitted he didn't know much about foreign policy, so he was just going to focus on the homefront. 9/11 made that impossible and now we expect him to be a diplomat? The man who admited he wasn't any good at foreign policy? The man can't offer any long term solutions because there are NONE, the middle east is a tangled web of crappy leaders or would-be leaders, each just as disgusting as the next.

  The reason Syria is thinking of supporting the USA is because they think they are strong enough to withstand the military coup that will follow. Other nations in that area are not so sure, and they don't want to help the USA because more than likely another anti-american governement will take control and wipe out those who seemingly supported the Americans. Do you see how complex this is??

  If Saddam is gotten rid of the problems/threats from a USA standpoint are done and over. But the people who live there are going to be plunged into chaos for who knows how many years. For those of you who believe the people and countries who want to use diplomatic reasoning are going too slow, and failing to see the larger picture, I will suggest to you they do see the whole picture and realize that removing Saddam will only be the start not the end.
• 

  back2dafront

  Helping others to gain that freedom that they desire it is what we really are fighting for, not oil.

  Exactly who is the USA helping gain freedom? Did bombing Afghanistan to pieces REALLY help the people there? Did the Gulf War REALLY help the Iraqi people, cuz from what I read the US purposely took out their water system thus causing a severe increase in infectious diseases, poverty, etc....

  I can't believe people still really believe in this corrupt system, ESPECIALLY the USA. This is not about oil?!?!? hahahaha

  Funny how the whole pursuit of Osama has died off. Did you know that the Bush family has business ties (a.k.a OIL MONEY) with Osama and his family? Wake up dude - this is all about greed - all Bush cares about is his bank account. If he really cared about this country and other countries he'd put more emphasis on environmental issues, like our neighbor Canada who are taking drastic measures to CONSERVE energy, not gobble up the rest of the earth's dwindling resources like USA.

  Iraqi oil isn't really that important, is it? Too many others have oil for us and the world to purchase.

  What's unimportant about Iraqi oil? The USA will take any and all they can get - we're the biggest users and want/need as much as possible for the cheapest price. I'm telling ya, Bush wants more control.

  I do agree that Sadaam is evil and I don't like the fact that he hasn't allowed inspectors in for awhile. but to solve that....allow the inspectors in (which was agreed upon MONTHS ago) - if they find nukes and other harmful weapons, destroy them. I don't know...just seems like they could get this guy out of office without having to blow up the whole country and leave thousands of innocent civilians dead, maimed and impoverished for years on end.

  I find it interesting how the threat suddenly turned from Osama to Sadaam just like that. The Al-Qaeda is still a very large threat, yet suddenly Sadaam is a bigger one, yet there's been no concrete proof of him having nukes or threatening to use them. Go figure.
• 

  Farkel

  Dateline had a reporter sneak into Iraq to do a story recently. They interviewed an Iraqi woman who said she and other women were gathered up along with their children and bussed to a public mass-execution of women in a residential neighborhood in Baghdad. These women and children were forced to go and forced to witness those other women die. There were five executioners dressed in black and wearing masks. The woman said they forced the victims to kneel and lopped off their heads like they were so much cattle. One woman's head was still barely attached by a piece of skin. An executioner pick it up and casually tossed it into a trash can.

  Sadaam's motive for forcing the women and children go was to instill fear in them.

  Why aren't those fucking morons demonstrating about THAT instead of demonstrating against a Nation's whose goal is to liberate the Iraqi people from Sadaam and his atrocities and removing the threat of nuclear and biological terror from a man who cares nothing about other's lives?

  Farkel
• 

  Mackin

  However, a major difference in the US and some other nations is that we have no intentions of using them for our expansion or gain. Ones like Saddam are bent on making the world the way he wishes.

  I have to disagree.

  In this country George bush is seen as little mote than a warmonger. From our point of view America seems to be forcing the whole world into its own mould. And you better watch out if you don't let America do whatever it wants, without question.

  For a good many years now New Zealand has banned American nuclear powered/armed vessels from its ports, a move which is widely supported by the people of this country. However since doing that, America has put New Zealand under some pressure, not great pressure I grant you, but pressure nonetheless. It's a small-scale example of what America does when it doesn't get its own way.

  Interestingly, there are some American people who move here to escape America's attitude. Just the other day I heard a radio announcer asking an American caller what he liked most about New Zealand and he said: No handguns, you don't have to pay for outgoing and incoming phone calls and New Zealand doesn't try to crush every country who has a different point of view.

  Quite telling I thought.

  Mackin.
• 

  DakotaRed

  Joanna and Back, do you have another alternative? Do we just let him go and build all the nukes and chemical weapons he wishes and then whine if he uses them? You admit he is an evil man, yet, wish nothing done about him either. His propensity is for domination, not peaceful coexistence.

  If you smell another Vietnam it is because the anti-war crowd is stirring emotions up again and to allow yet another nation to fall prey to tyrants. It is an admitted fact, from the leaders of North Vietnam, that due to the anti-war sentiment of the US during Vietnam, that they held out and fought a harrassment war as they did. In battle, they knew they could not win. But, through the efforts of the anti-war crowd, they knew that any support for the war would end and they would win by default. The result? South Vietnam fell, as did Laos and Cambodia. Think that was a good end? Ask the millions of boat people who fled the country after 1975.

  But, the point you all keep missing is that if the world stood up and said they were not going to tolerate Saddam getting those weapons, there would most likely be no war. Protesting the US and Britains resolve to stop Saddam will only bring about a larger scale war later on. All standing side by side now and saying they will not tolerate him will stop it now! You cannot defeat a bully by being weak and passive, they just use that as a sign they are powerful.

  As for bombing Afghanistan, maybe you should seek the news behind the news. Children, girls included, are returning to schools there. Yes, there is much fighting still, but again, what is your alternative? To let Al Qeada and the Taliban back in power and see those women who have shirked their burkas now being killed again?

  If the nations stood together at the end of the Gulf War things could have been much better for them in Iraq and the surrounding countries. But, the coalition fell apart and everyone stopped Bush Sr, from taking out Saddam and now, whine that he didn't take him out.

  As for it being about oil, I can only answer your hahahaha with a hahahaha of my own. Iraq hasn't been importing oil to the US for 10 years now and it hasn't hurt us a bit, has it? Stop listening to the anti-war socialists and research it for yourself. Other nations that do not support the US are much more dependent on Iraqi oil than the US is.

  You think we are going there to force them to keep oil cheap? Sorry, OPEC is not a US led coalition and they set their own prices, independent of the US or any other oil purchasing nation.

  Don't believe that just because Osama isn't the main news story that he is not still being sought. Get past mainstream media, who is more worried about ratings than actual news, and you will hear he is still being sought and that Saddam has always been a threat, but one that todays whiners didn't want removed.

  Just because the concrete proof you seek isn't shown on the 5 O'Clock news doesn't mean it isn't presented to others in the postition of authority. To get nations such as China and Syria to vote with thte US in the resolution, something was shown them that made them go along. But, if the anti-war crowd gets there way, you will have all the concrete proof you desire, just like you got from North Korea, who also signed a pact with the Clinton Adminstration saying they were not building them.

  Just like General Giap, Saddam loves seeing the protests. It's eggs him on and gives him more time to accomplish his goals. Stand now or face a really bloody battle later. Your choice. I thank the Almighty that we finally have a president again with the guts to stand up and not be cowered by the socialists.

  Lew W (of the walk softly, but carry a big stick class)
• 

  Shakita

  Realist:

  I am all for peace. Blessed be the peacemakers. That is what this resolution that was passed on Friday hopefully will accomplish. But, you have to face the fact that their will always be the Hitlers and Husseins out there who will never want peace. This is a fact of life. And, in this world of weapons of mass destruction you can not put off till tomorrow what must be done today. If you do put off till tomorrow, there might not be one.

  Shakita

  Edited by - shakita on 9 November 2002 16:9:23
• 

  DakotaRed

  Mackin, I've never been to New Zealand, but if it is anytihng like Australia, you do have a beautiful country. However, I will take exception to some of your comments.

  From our point of view America seems to be forcing the whole world into its own mould. And you better watch out if you don't let America do whatever it wants, without question.

  What country has the US invaded and took over their government to force them into compliance with us? In fact, what country has the US invaded ever with this intention? Your comments appear emotional and without factual support.

  America has put New Zealand under some pressure, not great pressure I grant you, but pressure nonetheless. It's a small-scale example of what America does when it doesn't get its own way.

  Again, what country has the US invaded to force their way? Governments pressure and lobby each other all the time, not just the US. But, the US has not historically invaded others to just get our way. If an invasion happens, it is usually to free the people and defeat a tyrannical regime.

  Just the other day I heard a radio announcer asking an American caller what he liked most about New Zealand and he said: No handguns, you don't have to pay for outgoing and incoming phone calls and New Zealand doesn't try to crush every country who has a different point of view.

  Should we seek and list comments of New Zealanders who have immigrated to the US? Would their support of the US negate your comments about the US? I doubt it, just as the one or two you mention are not necessarily representative about us.

  That you and your countrymen wish to stay out of it, I find admirable. But, don't be surprised that it one day backfires on you and terrorism rears it's ugly head in your area. If it does, and I sincerely hope and pray it doesn't, us warmongering Americans will be there to help you out too.

  Lew W
• 

  animal

  Let those that dont support us burn, when they get attacked.

  Animal
• 

  back2dafront

  ---

  Dakota,

  I understand your points and position. You asked what are the options to war? Well, I think this country should take a serious look at why any other country would WANT to use those horrible weapons against us in the first place. What has this country done to provoke such anger from others? In Iraqs case it's the US sanctions imposed on them - I think that's where the focus should start - at the root of the problem. Going to war will definitely solve the problem of ousting him, but it seems to me it would only be a temporary success, for the hatred against the USA would still exist amongst the people and the new leader.

  I don't have all the answers, and I'm not a gung-ho anti-war person, I just don't like to see war take out countless innocent civilians. The Gulf War was cool because although unfortunately there were civilian casualties, there weren't a whole lot of them (so we're told), however this war in Baghdad would cost tons of lives, and that's my concern. It just saddens me. I don't care what country you're from, I never wish to see innocent people suffer. Just do all you can do to remedy the situation WITHOUT war, and then if nothing works, leave it as the last resort. I think this one week thing is a good thing, actually, for he's had plenty of time already to make this happen.

  In regards to oil, true Iraq isn't importing oil, and no we're not hurting, but that doesn't mean Bush doesn't want more. His whole family is in the oil business, and I don't see anything convincing me otherwise that this Iraq invasion will not somehow put cash into his pocket. I could be wrong, but I could be right too. :-)

  At any rate, I totally agree Sadaam is an evil bastard and needs to be ousted. If it comes down to war, then so be it - I understasnd why people are protesting, but I can't say that I feel as strongly about it as they do. I just really dislike Bush - he's a bullshit artist in my opinion, and it seems like the only ones that don't see it that way are in one particular region of the USA. I don't mean to offend anyone by that remark, I'm just stating the truth. I just hope America doesn't end up seriously regretting voting him to office....
• 

  Mackin

  Your comments appear emotional and without factual support.

  My comments seem emotional?

  This whole thread is full of your impassioned arguments in support of your country's warmongering justified as "saving the world."

  I don't usually participate in this kind of thread because when passions run high, reason files out the window. I do not agree with your stance on this issue. I don't wish to enter into an argument or contribute to this thread turning into a flame war. Therefore I won't be posting anything further on this subject.

  Mackin