Should I continue to support Bill Bowen?

by Gamaliel 83 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Mulan

  The WT is our enemy - not Ray Franz, and not Bill Bowen.

  Excellent point. I totally agree. I sure would like all the fussing to go away. I guess by posting myself, I am perpetuating it. I just hate all the controversy.

  Both are good men, and has already been said dozens of times, they both have their own issues. One's issue does not have to be the same as the other's.

  I support both, and don't want to be sanctioned because I don't get 100% behind 100% of their agendas. (I don't think RF has an agenda, to tell the truth)

  RF is an old man. He is a bit younger than my own father. I would absolutely hate it if people were talking to him and, about him, like some are about RF. Dad has a little dementia, and doesn't remember things clearly, from the past. Some things are completely in fantasyland too. Leave Ray alone.

  Edited by - mulan on 20 November 2002 12:34:32
• 

  Gamaliel

  Mulan,

  I've seen your posts on this subject before. I appreciate your reasonable approach. I also don't think Ray has an agenda.

  The following is just my perspective on the issue, based in large part on evidence that's already been presented on the board. It happens to agree with evidence obtained outside the board, which I am not invoking:

  In my opinion, Bill has as well as admitted that he hyped this up out of almost nothing. But out of frustration for not getting the response he hoped for, Bill as recently as Sunday continues to promote the idea that "Ray wants a war." The only problem is Ray never got involved. In fact, that seems to be exactly the problem. Bill says he wanted Ray to support his efforts and Ray seemed understandably cautious. Not that Ray wouldn't be amenable, in my opinion, to offering or even helping to expose documentable evidence. It's just that Ray didn't have any documentable evidence that fit Bill's agenda. And that's from a version of the story we could once get from Bill himself. End of story. Then, after releasing hints and insinuations for months -- like trial balloons --Bill changes the story to such an extent that Ray believes it best to defend himself publically. Now Bill can hype the defense as an attack. People believed him. Thus, he can pretend he's slaying a dragon, in a story that can now "dragon" quixotically ever after.

  I wanted to comment on one other thing you said:

  RF is an old man. He is a bit younger than my own father. I would absolutely hate it if people were talking to him and, about him, like some are about RF. Dad has a little dementia, and doesn't remember things clearly, from the past. Some things are completely in fantasyland too. Leave Ray alone.

  You may have good personal reasons to associate dementia with your father and, perhaps Ray, by extension. I'm sure you meant this in the most positive light possible. This was attempted by Bill in the title he gave to his recent post about his "war" with Ray. ("Denial, Dementia or Criminal Intent") I'd mark him with a "G" if he was working on "Insinuation Skills."

  I think you've mentioned trustworthy friends of you or your husband in previous posts who have known Ray personally. You may be able to sort this out better for yourself by contacting him/them. Perhaps he/they even have more insight into what is happening.

  Gamaliel

  Edited by - Gamaliel on 20 November 2002 13:41:15
• 

  Pork Chop

  Gamaliel I think you need to ask yourself if your money is going to be well spent in supporting Silent Lambs. I have serious reservations about how effective they can be given the nature of the leadership. There may be other agencies doing a better job on this issue, and on a broader front.
• 

  jazbug

  I'm not taking sides with Bill/Ray issue but I do support Bill's work. He has been helping me and 2 others with issues involving the WTS. I don't know how much time he actually spends with what we do but I know it is not minimal. Feeling badly that he was doing this free, I told him I would like to pay him something for his help. He told me that I could donate to SL if my heart moved me to do so but he would not take any money for his time. His comment was, "Maybe it will make up for some of those talks I gave (at the KH)." So I would have trouble finding fault with what he does.

  As someone said a couple of weeks ago, Ray did what he felt was right at the time and Bill is doing what is needed now. And I agree with others who wrote that Bill (or Ray) is perfect. This is somethiing Bill has never done before so it's a learn as you go process. Since he is so passionate about what he does, he is bound to step on some toes along the way but at least he is DOING something and not just talking about it or pretending that the problem doesn't exist.
• 

  hawkaw

  Oh .... side bar ......

  I think "waiting" is soooo cooooool. Her posts and observations with conclusions on this sad subject are, for the most part, excellent and in line with the way I feel. I must admit I do agree with Island Woman that Bowen should never have gone there in the first place. Never. Part of the learning curve that all in leadership roles must learn the hard way.

  I do help out a little with Barb, Bill and others. Silentlambs has a lot of press work going forward that few hear about until it is out. You will see lots of topics in the press especally in January if you are Canadian. Other countries have stuff happening in them too that is in my mind major press.

  So relax. You have met stage one of the agenda - Getting a lot of PR. The PR has alerted other victims and now the lawyers are interested. Now its the lawyers turn - so sit back and enjoy the show.

  hawk
• 

  IslandWoman

  HS wrote last month:

  In these notes it became obvious to me that apart from viewing himself as beyond criticism, Mr. Bowen felt and feels that he is being used directly by God in the work he doing. This may or may not be true, I rather have my doubts, but what is more important is that I began to see a worrying pattern emerging, a Joseph Rutherford in the making, whose autocratic manner and cruelty in speech were viewed by his followers as forgivable as they 'were needed at the time' to 'get the preaching work going'. I suggested that he look to the example of the GB who themselves trudge their sad road in life, victims of exactly the same perception. Do the ends justfiy the means, even in the case of child-abuse?

  Mr. Bowen made repeated demands that I make an apology and pledge my support for *him*. I was asked twice to pledge support to him personally and I twice countered saying that I support the oppressed in any religion, in any walk of life, but that under no circumstances would I support *him*. The worrying specter of what I have fought tenaciously against this past twenty years had again appeared before me. Here appears a man who thinks himself more than a man, dictating my allegiances for me. I re-iterated that under *no* circumstances would I support Mr. Bowen, though the cause of abused children would always be my concern, as it had been for the two decades before I knew that he existed, and would continue to do so without any attachment to him or his organization.

  I eventually blocked my mail which precluded my having to explain to him *yet again* that snowballs might melt in hell before I pledge my support for him. I have never been a team player, and am not likely to become one by pledging support to a man with an admittedly large heart but whose demands for personal allegiance, and whose tawdry manner are as repulsive to me as the man-traps I escaped from within the WTS. I met many elders like Mr. Bowen in my years as a JW, I believe he is having difficulty understanding that he is a JW elder no longer.

  Mr Bowen accused me of sitting on my 'dumbass' while he was doing something practical. I answered his questions regarding what I had done to help abused children by informing Mr. Bowen briefly of my history since that late 70s when I had played a major part in the imprisoning of two abusers, had literally saved an abused young persons life, how I had paid for the University education of an abused JW so that the child that her brother had left her with might have a mother by her side with a future. I did not tell him of the many sensitive cases that I handed over to the authorities for investigation over the years, or of the documents smuggled out of WTS hands and which made their way into others hands, all this at great danger to myself and my family. If this man has fallen so in love with his own press as to diminish the work that people that Kent , Jan, and AlanF and yes, persons such as myself have done in exposing this problem years before the Internet was there for support and solidarity, and if Mr. Bowen is intent on starting another personality-founded cult then he can be guaranteed that I will not be marching beside him, nor wearing his tea-shirt uniforms. I will, away from public adulation, continue to offer my personal support in any way that I can for any person, young or old who has been abused by any system, as I always have. Some of us do not wear our heart on our sleeves and prefer to work outside the public eye and have been doing so for a long, long while.

  Apart from this, the 'you are either with me or against me attitude' is facile and eventually counterproductive to any cause, as it dismisses logic and intelligent analysis on the historically bloody altar of the marching song. Even people who have done nothing to help the cause of child-abuse victims have a right to question the methodology of those that have. This is true freedom of speech which Mr. Bowen seems to react strongly against.

  Hillary_Step has proven himself to be a man of integrity. When people like HS are compelled to speak as he did above I take note!

  This post was written on October 8 the day before Bill Bowen's first open attack on Franz here on this board.

  Some keep asking why continue this? They say, "Bill made a mistake so what, everyone makes mistakes." This is not about mistakes it is about Bill Bowen continuing his smear campaign against Ray Franz. It is about HS's sentiments above. It is about not being a damned JW anymore, someone who when they speak what they feel is right is vilified for not towing the line, the Watchtower line.

  Bowen follows in their footsteps.

  IW
• 

  RevMalk

  RevMalk,

  as far as I know silentlambs is going in that direction and more. We're setting up a legal section on the site (right now the link points to Kim Norris' page), and we're also setting up a section for a very prominent psychologist. She'll be able to answer questions online, and there will be a 'ask me' section, where she will answer questions that are posted to the public as well. Also, as far as I know a network of psychologists are being set up. Also, like I said before silentlambs is expanding

  Thanks. That's what I needed to hear. I just read about the Norris/Love class action suit. If they were to win, have they (or others) pledged funds back into the "cause." It should be a no-brainer for them if they think that an initial win could leverage another one. The investment in the website could help provide more leads and ammunition.

  The last post he made on the subject was November 6th, 2 weeks ago.

  It was actually closer to three days ago. On Sunday, overnight, he repeated all the same ideas to Channel C, a place he doesn't post to, and where such posts are expressly not permitted. You can hardly imagine how "out of place" this post appears among the other subjects for discussion.

  http://www.channelc.org/cgi-bin/eboard30/index.cgi

  I didn't know about this post, but do you blame him for defending himself? First everyone complains because he was not defending himself, now the complaints are that we IS defending himself. Give me a friggin break.

  Also you are very generous in your defense of Bill, but most of those issues have been covered. Just a couple of points I hadn't heard before:

  A person comes on this board and states an opinion that may be based in fact, and everyone tears him to shreds without even giving him the benefit of the doubt.

  I gave Bill the benefit of the doubt. I wrote Bill and I called Ray. I no longer have any doubt. I wouldn't be so concerned if I could still give Bill the benefit of the doubt. I know now that there are a lot of people, myself included, who are holding back evidence to avoid unnecessarily hurting a cause that might still be salvaged.

  I think you shouldn't hold back the proof, why hurt the cause any further if you have proof. Where do your loyalties lie, with man or with the abused. If you have proof let's see it. Don't worry about hurting one man's feelings just to hurt thousands of innocent people. Let's have it.

  Who in the hell is Ray Franz?? He wrote a book, now two, made alot of money, your money. Did he ever donate any of that to victims of Watchtower abuse? I think not. Has he done one thing even remotely close to what the silentlambs cause has done? I think not. He's no God people,

  I can see you have never visited with him. I have. I'm guessing that you didn't just make this up, so someone has surely lied to you. But it's also hard to believe you didn't have the honesty to question even a potential lie before using it, unverified.

  No-one told me anything, and furthermore, why would you even post this on the board if you already have your proof? I think you're being dishonest. This thread in itself is proof that you're just trying to hurt the cause. If you've already spoken to Franz, and he's given you this hard evidence, then you don't need us to tell you whether or not to bail. I think you, my friend, are the one being dishonest, and I think there's not a shred of doubt to that effect. And I also think if you have this proof, and others do, it would have been posted by now. If it exists, and you're holding back, it's further evidence of your dis-honesty. No-one with a kind heart would allow the innocent victims to be harmed just to save another person's feelings.....a person you obviously don't trust in the first place. So, again I say, let's have the proof. If there is this hard evidence, I want to see it, and if you can convince me I'll bail with you. Not on the innocent lambs, but on Bill Bowen. You have my word on that. We'll have to find another way to lend support.

  Many people can testify that you didn't verify it, because I happen to know other people on this board who have visited him. But it's also evidence that you have blind faith in whoever lied to you. Perhaps now, by extension, you can understand better why I am as worried for the victims as I am for Bill.

  You need to read my friend. I never said it was evidence of anything. I simply asked a question, and offered my opinion. I don't think he has done much more than made money off a book, but if I'm wrong I'm wrong, still doesn't make a difference in this case.

  I don't think you're worried about the victims at all, another opinion I hold. If you did you would give us this sure fire hard evidence you and the 'others' have. Don't get me wrong, I've said it before (http://www.lambsroar.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=884#884), for what it's worth, COC did help me, I'm not desputing that fact. Edited to remove "Stuff from other places"

  Edited by - RevMalk on 20 November 2002 17:3:34
• 

  ozziepost

  Are we now posting stuff from "another place". I thought that was against the rules of this db.
• 

  Simon

  I think this is getting out of hand (again) and I for one am getting pretty fed up with it all.

  If Bill wants to post accusations about Ray Franz then fine ... he can do it to his hearts content on his own forum.

  Personally, I think it is DUMB and serves no purpose but hey, what do I know ...

  Now I don't think that trying to claim that Bill is defending himself works because he started all this and has chosen to keep continuing it by posting it anywhere and everywhere, every chance he gets.
• 

  waiting

  Gosh, usually people just ignore me.

  I got the priviledge of meeting Barb & Joe Anderson a couple of weeks ago. I was greatly impressed, as were the others present. A hell of a jigsaw puzzle player to boot. She spoke with Bill on the phone while visiting and told him where she was.

  Barb - "I'm at T....'s place."

  Bill - "who's?"

  Barb - "waiting's"

  Bill - "waiting"s........." (I gathered from Barb that the voice inflection was none to friendly)

  She & I chuckled 'bout that one...... He just hasn't learned to tolerate me yet.

  I agree with the others..............ain't nobody perfect (particularily a man). Long live SilentLambs movement and give Franz & Bowen a rest.

  If Bill wants to continue posting about it...so what? He's as free as we are, isn't he? lol........like Farkel & Dungbeetle aren't on a current agenda elsewhere? Nobody's overly upset about that one...and I suspect a lot of people like/respect both posters. I know I do.

  waiting