by nicolaou 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
WOW Pad,
you are representing your church correctly I am suprised I thought you were making it up. I just checked my copy of the Baltamore Catachism
A. The priest is the ordinary minister of Baptism; but in case of necessity any one who has the use of reason may baptize.
Question: what is determand as "necessity" that any old joe off the street can jump in and baptize?
clash_city_rockers
The word "necessity" is not restrictive in any way. If one is baptized in the name of the farther, the son and the holy spirit, then they are baptized
I baptized my daughter in the birthing room. I later had her baptized in the church but that is because the bear minim is never good enough for her. lol.. I wanted her to have a proper baptism, with all our relatives there to welcome her into the Kingdom.
Willy,
If your a Roman Catholic then I cannot except your answer because it may not comply with the official governing body of the RCC magisterium says if you are a papist then you will have to comply with what they mean by "necessity". You have to give me a refference to what your governing body/magisterium teaches on what they mean by "necessity" in thier teaching on baptism in the catechism.
Now if your any old baptist or anabaptist fella then you can make up any old doctrine off the cuff and throw it out there by cause you are your own boss as a anabaptist or baptist..
cheers,
jr
I just got done talkining to a Dominican Priest on the matter of baptism Monsinor Rojas (OFM) the leading priest at Saint Margret Mary's on 14th and Eccleisior in Oakland, CA he also does as he puts it the "true Latan Mass" at high noon on sunday.
He said, willy_thinks baptism of his daughter in the birthing room does not count as true baptism since a catholic priest is local and available and does not constitute the need of "necessity" that is only for those who are stuck alone in island and no priest is around for hundreds of miles.
What would of happen to Mr. willy_thinks baby if it were to die before she got here true baptism from the official roman catholic priest since the the self baptism by here father was a false baptism under Roman Catholic rule and it's deffinition of "necessity"
Father Rojas said "the baby would have died in origanal sin"
I asked that means accourding to the Roman Catholic church then that baby would go to hell?
and Father Rojas said: "YES"
Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 6 December 2002 15:37:1
Baltamore Catechism
A. This sin is called original because it comes down to us from our first parents, and we are brought into the world with its guilt on our soul.
A. Baptism is a Sacrament which cleanses us from original sin, makes us Christians, children of God, and heirs of heaven.
A. Actual sins and all the punishment due to them are remitted by Baptism, if the person baptized be guilty of any.
A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.
willy does not know his papist theology
I still don't agree with baptizing children.
LOL @ clash_city_rockers
If you cannot except my answer because it MAY NOT comply with the official RCC magisterium, then you can not except the answer of the priest for the very same reason. only a biship, cardinal or pope can speak for the church. not laypeople and not preasts.
"true Latan Mass" lol
i like the "false english mass" lol
"a false baptism under Roman Catholic rule" lol
conditional baptism is not false baptism
Try to find somthing in roman catholic "rule" that shows a false baptisom with correct intent and correct form. baptism isn't symbolic and no one can put back sin that was taken by God. lol
If you think the priest was saying something like this, there is some confusion between you and he.
Dad: "farther my baby died at 2 days old, should I have baptized it?"
Priest: "Oh no there was a priest at the parish who was going to do it next week. So there was no need."
Dad: "Oh thank God farther! I thought it died without the hope of salvation."
Priest: "baptism is needed for salvation."
Dad: "but I thought I didn't need to baptize it?"
Priest: "You should have thought of that before."
Edited by - willy_think on 8 December 2002 0:17:59
I should say that such matters are in play once someone has formed the intent. My own local priest would say that the soul of the child may well choose to be born to (or gravitate to) this or that peoples, and there is already a certain intention.
Necessity is what you consider to be necessary, for whatever reasons you have.
paduan
Willy let me begin with the coucil of Trent which can be found
here-----> http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent.htm
Seventh Session Cannon 10 council of Trent 1564
CANON X.-If any one saith, that all Christians have power to administer the word, and all the sacraments; let him be anathema
You said:
only a biship, cardinal or pope can speak for the church. not laypeople and not preasts.
Wrong Silly Willy... only the official Governing Body of the Magisterium can speak docrinaly for the church NOT any old biship or cardinal now a preist, bishop or cardinal can speak of papist doctrine but can only regergatate what the official teaching is and must get "IMPRAMATOR" for thier teachings for it to be inline with official papist doctrine.
You said:
"true Latan Mass" lol
i like the "false english mass" lol
I'm sure you can tell us the difference between the Novis Ordum and the old Traditional Mass
You said:
Try to find somthing in roman catholic "rule" that shows a false baptisom with correct intent and correct form. baptism isn't symbolic and no one can put back sin that was taken by God. lol
Your personal and privitiezed baptism was not considered "nessesary for It to be deemed a true baptism by the RCC church" I had just got off the phone with a conversation with the leaders of Catholic Answers in San Diego, CA and the office of Bishop Cardnel Mahoney, Arch Bishop of Los Angeles I explained your situation with them and they said that your baptism is not an official baptism in the RCC church since a preist was with in the vacinity and the church knew your family was going to have a baby thus baptism arrangments can be made. Thus your little independent individual self proclaimed baptism was a false baptism considered by your church and thus since it is not a true baptism by the standards of your church then God, who according to RCC official teachings will not remit sins since it was a false baptism.
MY only advise to you willy is to Trust Jesus Christ alone for salvation and leave the false sacerdotal system of man made, man centered works and worship and join a bible believing Refromed bible teaching church like the Orthodox Presbyterian Church or the United Reformed Church or The Presbyterian Church of America or the Reformed Church in the United States.
with preyers,
jr
Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 10 December 2002 2:52:55
CHEVY,
Trust me I am totally AGAINST the Roman Catholic doctrine of Baptism in fact I am against roman catholicism because it is against the bible.
Look I'm not trying to be mean to these guys but part of the problem is that people like willy and apaduan is that these guys keep spouting off junk that is not of thier church and that makes dialog very difficult. I don't think they are trying to be rebels against thier own Roman Catholic church I just don't think they know or understand thier own Roman Catholic Doctrine. These guys are totally unfamilure with thier own Roman Catholic dogmatics. So when they try to explain thier own Faith in the Roman Catholic Church it sounds like independent individualized privitized jibberish and not like they are in line with the Roman Catholic Faith. Remember when your are under the Roman Catholic system of Doctrine you are under a very heavy, burdomsome, unforgiving and weighty yoke, a yoke just as deadly as the Watchtower. Thats because they believe in salvation by works and not salvation by Faith alone.
That is why I plead for these people to trust Jesus and go to a bible believing bible teaching reformed church where you have Christ alone preached and where the yoke is light.
Matt 11:29-30
29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
But that doesn't mean that peadobaptiem is not commanded in the bible for those children of believers.
Are you familure with Reformed Theology?
Edited by - clash_city_rockers on 10 December 2002 2:47:7
