For Island Woman: A Scroll With "7 Seals&q...

by bjc2read 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

bjc2read

Hi Island Woman:
This is a follow-up on the "I would like to learn" Series #1 thread started by yourself, last week that I enjoyed reading so much. Thanks for writing it. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=40665&site=3
Here is my follow-up comment on the subject.
As time passes for mankind, centuries or milleniums, eventually, every sincere seeker of truth, every sincere JWs or ex-JWs must come to realize one, most important thing about God's Word the Bible, and that is this: God's Word has been shrouded in mystery for centuries, and totally misunderstood by mankind in general because it has truly never been viewed as what it should be viewed as, an Ultra "Sacred Secret" of God's making. A Religious Secret that God is clearly keeping to Himself, until the authorized person arrives on the earthly scene.
This means in short, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for mankind on their own, to correctly interpret it without divine help, divine inspiration. (This is why the WTS failed. They admit they are not "inspired". So they falter in their "teachings" and explanations of scripture. And they will continue to fail, because they too have not come to know this fact. Divine inspiration is definitely needed.) There can be no doubt after 1,000s of years of having God's inspired Word within their possession, with no one correctly understanding it, this clearly proves that It is God's Religious Secret that He himself has held tightly in His Hand for a purpose, UNTIl the designated person arrives to dispense His knowledge. A message with "7 seals" placed upon it, to insure "confidentiality" of its message. Then at the appropriate time, at last when God's message is correctly understood, only this particular designated person, will be able to take the "sealed scroll" from God's Mighty Hand, and break each "seal", or correctly explain what these 7 "seals" mean, in relation to mankind and God. For Almighty God to give this authorized person his sacred Word, since no one can wrest it out of God's mighty hand, this shows this is the person God has fully approved to do this. It would prove this desginated person then, is the only person authorized to break these "seals" and take the "sealed scroll" from God's Hand. In this context, he is shown as the 'lamb" who has "7 horns" or "7 eyes". It would prove, he is God's "Chosen One". He is God's "Servant". -- Isa. 49:1-7; Revelation 5:1-7
This is the only way we can properly understand such matters, as God's Religious Secrets that He Himself keeps held tightly in His Almighty Power, with no unauthorized person discovering its vital, yet hidden meanings for us today.
Amos 3:7 says of God:
"For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets."
In the large Print NW Translation on this verse, the footnote comment shows the expression "confidential matter" as being in latin rendered the word "secretum" or secret. This is how we should understand this information from God. It is a religious secret, that God will ONLY reveal to the above mentioned person in whome God has purposed to first understand his Glorious Word. The Mystery "Chieftain" of Ezekiel 44:1-3. Until that time in which he arrives, for all mankind to see, all mankind must wait.
So while mankind waits for understanding of God's will through the mystery "Chieftain", there are a few things that we can do. We should always note the "details" that are unexplained, knowing a plausible, reasonable, understandable "explanation" will surface and God will have provided as usual. That should be our attitude of the matter. We should know, and fully expect God to send us the designated person, the "Chieftain" of Ezekiel 44:1-3. And then, and only then, will we rightly expect God to release the tightly held sacred information, that He has up to this time, wisely kept privy only to Himself. At that time, we should expect, the sacred information of God, to be released, at God's discretion. Its release comes at the designated time foretold in scripture, "in the final part of the days" when "Israel" is in "great distress". -- See Jeremiah 23:20; 30:7-9, 24.

So God has kept it simple. God simply releases His sacred "understanding" of His purposes, by way of the "Chieftain". He grants true "understanding" of His Will to this chosen one. It is God's choice, God's Chosen One. And we should expect the Bible to speak openly about this one. And it does. His role is to explain things, as we would expect of a coming "messiah", like Jesus. (John 4:25) This one is spoken of in God's "scroll". But the holy "scroll" is held in God's Hands only. So since the "scroll" is held tight within His Grasp, as Revelation 5:1 shows, everything is proceeds according to God's discretion. And the holy "seals" on this "scroll, "seals up" the bible. This holy "scroll" has upon it, seven "seals" or seven (7) great, cataclysmic events untold to mankind that blocks "understanding" of God's Sacred Purposes. 7 unrevealed truths which work to "seal" the Bible up, until Jehovah the Almighty gets ready to reveal these things. 7 "religious secrets" of God. After all, Jehovah God is the "Great Revealer" of Secrets. -- Daniel 2:47

So since this is the case, God keeps his Religious Secrets to Himself until, until its time to reveal these powerful events as "religious secrets" or "Sacred Secrets" to the "Chieftain". God "grants understanding" to his Chosen One, the "Chieftain" as depicted in Ezekiel 44:1-3 "eating bread" in God's Holy Presence. In turn, the "Chieftain" reveals it to mankind, but to spiritual "Israel" [JWs] first. This Divine Pattern, was first established by Jesus Christ as revealed in Matthew 10:6 and Matthew 13:11.

Other verses back this up. For example, Revelation 6:2 the first "seal" is broken. We read of a mysterious "white horse" rider who receives a "crown" of favor from God, in these last days. Just based upon that "knowledge" or unique perspective of things, we must conclude that this particular "rider" himself is NOT Jesus Christ. No, he is not. Matthew 28:18, despite what the WTS and JWs continue to say, clearly shows Jesus Christ possesses "all power and authority" over heaven and earth ever since the first century. So reasonably we must conclude, there is absolutely nothing, no "crown" [stephenos] of victory that can be given to him as a reward, in these LAST DAYS. That teaching, that thought simply doesn't make sense. As we remember, Revelation shows us the future, "the things that must take place", since Jesus was granted immortal life in heaven in the first century. Jesus had by the writing of the book of Revelation, already been "declared God's Son" in the complete sense. We know this. (Romans 1:4; Rev. 4:1)
But the one shown to be the rider of the "White Horse" here at Revelation 6:2, can also be shown in scripture to be the one we call "Shiloh", who is supposed to specifically show up "in the final part of the days". that's during our day and time. So the designation of "Shiloh" too, then would not apply to Jesus Christ either, contrary to popular belief. Appropriately, "Shiloh" should be understood to be the coming mystery "Chieftain" of Ezekiel 44:1-3. -- See Genesis 49:1, 10

So then the "plan" is quite simple as Amos 3:7 shows, this is God's designated M.O. [modus operande] when we examine his past dealings. It is His pattern of operation, to use ONE MAN. One person. As previously mentioned by myself on other threads, the "Chieftain" is allowed to "eat bread" in the Holy Presence of the Almighty, in His Future Temple in fact. A "Temple" that was previously abandoned by God for becoming guilty of committing "fornication" with its filthy, disgraceful "king's" activity. These worthless "kings" [Governing Body of JWs] are the ones who presumptuously "put their doorposts" right up beside "God's doorpost" and caused the Temple to be "defiled" in God's eyes. Now the Temple must be "purified" before God will come near them again. (Ezekiel 43:22-27) A "defiled" Temple that now, because of spiritual "fornication" being committed by the "kings" [G.B. UN/NGO Disaster], that now has to be cleansed and "purified" before God would accept them again. As Ezekiel says of this new Temple Arrangement, "This is the law of the House...all around is something most holy. Look! This is the law of the House." In other words, Jehovah is primarily interested in this "House" being kept dutifully "Holy", spiritually clean, in His sight, before He will deal with them again. -- See Ezekiel 43:7-12.

Simple.

And to set this whole stage of events for us, dutifully Almighty God reveals His "confidential matters" to this foretold designated person, who fully carries out God's Will toward wayward "Israel" [JWs]. He becomes the "Servant" of God; the one God "chooses" for this work. -- Isaiah 49:1-7

So God chooses the "Chieftain", who then despenses the "knowledge" to the deserving ones of "Israel" first. The ones God has chosen. Therefore, the "kingdom of God", becomes repatriated, restored "Israel". The ones that are restored from apostasy to God's favor. The spiritual nation of Israel [JWs]. And that means, we today who accept God's arrangement for peace, we who accept Ezekiel's "Chieftain", restored Israel, become the "kingdom of God", reborn on earth, the kingdom that we have all waiting for all of this time. God's Kingdom is now, upon earth, where God "dwells" forever and ever. In other words, we as "Jehovah's Witnesses" become the long-awaited "Temple" Arrangement that had to be pulled up from spiritual "fornication", because of the disgraceful sins of the Governing Body of Jehovan's Witnesses, but later will have the inestimatable privilege to have God Almighty Himself "reside in the midst of the sons of Israel to TIME INDEFINITE". -- Ezekiel 43:7-9; 48:35

So the story does have a happy ending, after all.

This is a blessing, if we can "see" the whole picture. We can today become the holy, blessed "arrangement" of God. But first, we must come to understand the role of the "Chieftain". Again, keeping it simple. We must come to understand the "Chieftain" is the one that God invites to "eat bread" in His lofty presence, the only one. And he will provide proper directions for us, Israel. Israel can recovery from spiritual disaster, only if they accept the spiritual help from the "Chieftain", and thus benefit fully from this horrible WTS "experience". This is our only, only way out. -- Ezekiel 44:1-3; Daniel 2:34, 35, 44
bjc
Edited by - bjc2read on 24 November 2002 13:46:14
IslandWoman

Hi bjc,
Have you given any thought to why there is no mention of the Ark in Ezekiel's reconstructed spiritual temple?
Thanks,
IW
JofSalem

Thank you so much Island Woman for causing bjc2read to post a perfectly eloquent message about our near future. We now have a crisp declaration in a nutshell of what the Bible is fundamentally about. It is clear to me that the hope of humanity is hidden within the total scriptural word of Jehovah. It is also patently obvious the world is ready to be taught by Ezekiel's Mystery Chieftan as we approach a period of utter global turmoil and chaos. We are especially blessed to be able to watch and experience the remaining chapters of Revelation to play out. "thy kingdom come, thy will be done; on earth as it is in heavan. Amen
Shalom, Jof Salem
IslandWoman

Hi JofSalem,
You're Welcome. Maybe Jehovah was the originator.
Do you have an opinion as to why there is no Ark in Ezeziel's Temple?
Thanks,
IW
bjc2read

IW,
Excellent Question! Here is a possible scenario.
No mention is made in the scriptures of exactly when the ark of the covenant disappeared from the temple. A surmise could be made, based on Ezekiel chapters 9, 10 and 11, that it occurred in the fifth year of Zedekiah's reign. The one thing that we do know is that Nebuchadnezzer did not take it to Babylon when he razed the temple in the 11th year of Zedekiah's reign.
Ezekiel 10:4 speaks of the 'glory of Jehovah rising up from the cherubs to the threshold of the house, and the house gradually became filled with the cloud, and the courtyard itself was full of the brightness of the glory of Jehovah' as he spoke to the 'man clothed with the linen' who was to pronounce Jehovah's judgement message to Jerusalem. Afterwards, verse 18 shows that the 'glory of Jehovah' moved back over the cherubs. Chapter 11, verse 23, says: "And the glory of Jehovah went ascending from over the midst of the city and began to stand over the mountain that is to the east of the city." I would suggest that this is indicative of Jehovah's presence (represented by the ark of the covenant) being withdrawn from the city/temple and its being placed somewhere else. Perhaps a future temple arrangement.
Ezekiel 40:2 reads: "In the visions of God he brought me to the land of Israel and gradually set me down upon a very high mountain, on which there was something like the structure of the city of the south." He then begans to describe a temple structure that is being measured. Ezekiel 43:4,5 describes the return of the glory of Jehovah to this new temple this way: "And the glory of Jehovah itself came into the House by way of the gate the front of which was toward the east. And a spirit proceeded to raise me upward and bring me into the inner courtyard and look! the House had become full of the glory of Jehovah."
Interestingly, Rev. 21:10 speaks of "New Jerusalem" being situated on a "great and lofty Mountain", very similar to Ezekiel 40:2. Revelation 11:19 does show the "ark of the covenant" being seen in that particular temple arrangement. So if the temple/city of Ezekiel's vision and the one described in Revelation are the same, then we could conclude that the "ark of the covenant" is present in both temple/city arrangements.
Hope this helps.
bjc
IslandWoman

bjc,
Thanks for the reply.
Interestingly, Rev. 21:10 speaks of "New Jerusalem" being situated on a "great and lofty Mountain", very similar to Ezekiel 40:2. Revelation 11:19 does show the "ark of the covenant" being seen in that particular temple arrangement. So if the temple/city of Ezekiel's vision and the one described in Revelation are the same, then we could conclude that the "ark of the covenant" is present in both temple/city arrangements.
Are you saying that the temple described in Ezekiel is a heavenly temple? Rev. 11:19 refers to a heavenly temple and you are saying they might be the same. Thus my question.
IW
bjc2read

IW,
Are you saying that the temple described in Ezekiel is a heavenly temple? Rev. 11:19 refers to a heavenly temple and you are saying they might be the same. Thus my question.
I am saying that they are the same, however, both Ezekiel and Revelation are describing an earthly arrangement not a heavenly one, contrary to popular opinion. In fact, the entire book of Revelation is describing events that will affect the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses.
If you consider a well known verse in Revelation, chapter 21 verse 1, which reads: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more," I think that we both can agree that this has reference to an earthly arrangement. To put a new twist on it, this verse has reference to the arrangement existing within the organization of JWs. The heavens are the leadership (GB and such like ones), and the earth represents the rank and file JW. Verse 2 is describing, not a literal transfer of 'new Jerusalem' from heaven to earth, but is simply showing that this earthly government has the direct authorization of Jehovah to be in existence. So it is referring to the replacement of one EARTHLY governmental arrangement by another. Case in point, Isaiah 66:22 which says,
"For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making are standing before me, is the utterance of Jehovah, so the offspring of you people and the name of you people will keep standing."
Also Isaiah 65:17 which says,
"For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called tomind, neither will they come up into the heart."
In the typical sense, JWs were taught by the WTS that the expressions of a "new heavens" and "new earth" to refer to a new governmental arrangement over God's people, as well as a new "society" of people who are willing subjects of that governmental arrangement.
Here is an example of what I mean. The "Survival into a new earth" book page 106 makes this enlightening comment:
"Impossible though such a thinga had seemed from a human standpoint, powerful Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians in 539 B.C.E. The jews came under a NEW GOVERNMENT, "NEW HEAVENS", Cyrus the Great filled a prominent role in that "new heavens."...Governor Zerubbabel and High Priest Jesua also served prominently in that governmental "NEW HEAVENS," and the restored Jewish remnant made up "A NEW EARTH," a cleansed society that reestablished pure worship in the land."
This was our understanding of the matter where we were JWs. Similarly, based upon that understanding then, the "passing away of the old heavens and the old earth", could represent a powerful change in God's eyes, for His people Israel. It could represent a change in governmental leadership and willing subjects of this "new heavens" and "new earth" of God's making, in our day and time. Having this modified understanding of matters as drawn from the book of Isaiah, could radically reshape our concept of the "new heavens" and "new earth" spoken of in the book of Revelation. Finally, we can now see them as being a powerful "change" in leadership over Israel, with a repentant, repatriated people of Israel willingly submitting themselves, as the "new earth" to our new governmental arrangement, seated upon earth, as the "new heavens".
To reinforce this thought, if you carefully consider verses 14 and 15 of Revelation chapter 22, you will see what is described as a powerful EARTHLY scene, having to do with Heavenly "New Jerusalem". Verse 15 states: "Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolators and everyone liking and carrying on a lie." But, we must ask ourselves: Outside of where? Certainly not outside of a heavenly city, in God's presence, do we find filthy "dogs" and the like, do we? This is a very powerful scriptural proof, I think. Therefore, we must admit here in this instance, these individuals are still on earth, but cast "outside" of God's Heavenly Arrangement, seated upon earth. So then, by adopting this understanding of matters, we can clearly see the offensive "dogs" are simply not able to gain entrance to this earthly city 'by its gates.' This makes more sense.
By way of comparison, Ezekiel 48:35 shows Almighty God had accepted this new earthly "temple" arrangement. It states:
"...And the name of the city from that day on will be Jehovah Himself is There."
It says, "from that day on" which shows that Jehovah has accepted this arrangement on a permanent basis. And this is clearly, an earthly arrangement spoken of in Ezekiel vision. We have many proofs for that. If we compare the contents of Revelation 21:3, it is saying almost the same identical thing.
Rev. 21:3 says in part,
"...And The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them".
So there seems to ample evidence to suggest that both temples/cities of Ezekiel and Revelation are speaking of the same EARTHLY arrangement.
bjc
JofSalem

Island Woman, your awareness that the Mercy seat (ARK OF THE COVENANT) is not overtly identified by Ezekiel's description of the New Temple is both discerning and insightful. I commend you for your thoughts on this. In fact Ezekiel does not say very much about the compartment called the most holy of holys found in Ezekiel's Temple. But, we do have a few clues that can prove to be helpful in answering your question. First this point: At Ezekiel 40:3-6 we see a "man with the appearance of copper with a flax cord in his hand, and a measuring reed" standing in the [East] gate and doing a "measuring" work. I feel this is a clear reference to the mystery "Chieftain" wherein he proceeds to "measure" the temple complex and area, from the "east gate" as his starting point. We remember, it is the "east gate" where the mystery "Chieftain" finds his personal station before God. -- Ezekiel 44:1-3; 46:1, 2 (Interestingly, following along with bjc train of thought, we notice a "measuring" work proceeding for the temple mentioned in the book of Revelation too. This is I feel, a most noteworthy point in identifying the temple vision in Revelation. -- Rev. 21:15) However we notice, even though the man standing in the "[east] gate" does a thorough "measuring" work for Jehovah of the "Temple", still we see he does not report on the contents on the Most Holy Compartment, but only gives its dimensions. -- Ezekiel 41:3, 4 My sense is that, we would not want to necessarily conclude from this information, that the "mercy seat" or "ark of the covenant" is not present there in the Most Holy. Here is why I say this. A careful reading of Leviticus 16:14 (New American Standard Version) shows the orientation of the ark and/or mercy seat. i.e. the east side is seen when entering the compartment just past the "curtain"; and the front of the mercy seat is to the left or the south side. Also, the New World Translation correctly renders this verse to show this. First the NW Translation's rendering of Levitical 16:14 which says, "And he must take some of the bull's blood and spatter it with his finger in front of the cover on the east side, and he will spatter some of the blood with his finger seven times BEFORE THE COVER." "Before the Cover," would be the south side of the Mercy Seat. The head or front of the ark of the Covenant, pointing south. Also lets notice, the New American Standard Bible rendering of this, "Moreover, he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; also IN FRONT OF THE MERCY SEAT he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times." Now this point is quite important, when we consider chapter 47 of Ezekiel's vision, wherein we are told about "LIVING WATERS flowing from under the SOUTH side of the temple then flowing to the east. The south side is the front of the mercy seat or the mouth of the "ark of the covenant". But, an "ark of the covenant" that has been ATONED for. -- Ezekiel 47:1, 2 The observance of the "Day of Atonement" with its many features, demonstrated an "atoned" for "ark of the covenant", or "mercy seat", which was to picture to God a new arrangement from God, an "atoned for" SCAPEGOAT, as mentioned at Leviticus 16:10. This verse shows this "live goat" gets "atoned for" before God uses it in a sacrificial sense, different from the first goat, which does not need to be "atoned for" at all. Thus, the second "goat", the live goat, pictures the newly atoned for "mercy seat" or "ark of the covenant" in this new temple arrangement of Ezekiel's inspired vision. He becomes an "atoned for" messiah or "scapegoat" who is to provide words of "life" to establish an earthly paradise. And these "living waters" are coming from the SOUTH side of the temple, as it were, from the mouth [or front] of the "mercy seat" or "ark of the covenant" from within the Most Holy compartment. This is the significance of the "living waters" coming from the "south" of the temple. -- Ezekiel 47:1, 2 Then, after coming forth from the "south" of the temple, then the "living waters" turn quickly left (at a 90 degree angle) and go "eastward" where after clearing the temple grounds we see many, many "trees" spring up upon its embankment and are sustained by these "living waters" coming forth from the "southside" of the temple building. We also remember Revelation 22:1, 2 speaking of almost the same identical thing. (I noticed above bjc commenting on the hidden similarities of Ezekiel's account and that of Revelation. I concurr with her findings too since we've both been reading the writings of MDS for many years now.) We see, the farther from the temple the water flows, the deeper it becomes, thus giving greater vision and understanding concerning Jehovah's word. The mercy seat in this New Temple pictures the MDS [Modern Day Servant] the Mystery Chieftain" of our times, that eats "bread in the east gate" before Almighty God. -- Isaiah 49:1-7; Ezekiel 44:1-3 Rest assured Jehovah's holy spirit abounds throughout the entirety of this New Temple structure, along with the newly "atoned for" Mercy Seat or "ark of the covenant" that exists properly within the Most Holy Compartment of Ezekiel's vision. Shalom, JofSalem
Edited by - JofSalem on 24 November 2002 23:44:46
bjc2read

IW,
What are your thoughts concerning what the 'ark of the covenant' in the Most Holy symbolizes or represents?
Thanks
bjc
IslandWoman

bjc,
What are your thoughts concerning what the 'ark of the covenant' in the Most Holy symbolizes or represents?
I believe the Ark represents God's Presence and that the spiritual representations of its contents (as identified in the Bible) can be used to identify the Ark in modern times.
IW

For Island Woman: A Scroll With "7 Seals&q...

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