Farkel, I seriously doubt anything I present to you will change your mind. I won't waste my time getting in a debate with a reprobate person like yourself. Maybe you should think about your own salvation before getting into trivial squabbles like this.
Jesus is God
by SwedishChef 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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JT
This used to be one of my favorite forms of cheap entertainment...watching "Christians" spew hatred towards other "Christians," (even condemning each other to eternal damnation) over a game of Trinity pingpong during online chat.
I even jumped in and learned I could play Trinity pingpong all by myself! (I became a master-debater!)
I wonder how long it takes some to learn a lesson in futility?
Does it really matter if I believe in Tom and you believe in Jerry, or that Tom is actually Jerry...or that Tom is bigger than Jerry? I mean they are in the same wonderful cartoon! Can't we all just sit quietly and watch the show?
great post i love it
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avishai
avishai said: Farkel, you rock! Also, what about the one "good" man in sodom/gomorrah, Lot? Who told the pervs outside trying to hump the travelers " Take my virgin daughters instead"! The same "righteous man" who later humped both of those daughters! Yeah, reallly great guy.
Scorpion said: You have this backwards avishai. You need to read Genesis 19:30-36 and tell us again who humped who.
Yeah, right! I HAD just read that passage. I just don't buy it. Scorpion, do you have a daughter? It says He had a problem w/ it, coz' he would'nt do it sober. Uh huh, "Iwas drunk, god!" I don't care how piss drunk I get, I am not gonna screw my daughter, & DEFINITELY not going to fall for it two nights in a row. But, I guess we can't have our righteous heroes Humping little gils w/ out excuses. Or offering them up to pervs
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UnDisfellowshipped
This is one of the funkyest Threads I have ever seen.
We've got like 3 different Threads going inside of this one Thread.
Anyway,
Navigator said:
No the bible does Not say that Jesus created all that was made. That honor is given to the Logos or The Word. Jesus refers to himself as a Son of Man.
Who is the Logos/Word?
John 1:14: The Word became Flesh, and lived among us. We saw His glory, such glory as of the Only-Begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:15: John [the Baptist] testified about Him. He cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me, for He was before me.'"
John 1:16: From His fullness we all received grace upon grace.
John 1:17: For the Law was given through Moses. Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.Jesus said that all people should honor HIM just as they honor the FATHER:
John 5:23: that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who doesn't honor the Son doesn't honor the Father who sent Him.
The Bible does directly say that Jesus created all things:
Colossians 1:16: For by Him were all things created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.
Colossians 1:17: He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.
Colossians 1:18: He is the Head of the body, the assembly, who is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:19: For all the Fullness was pleased to dwell in Him;
Colossians 1:20: and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on the Earth, or things in the Heavens, having made peace through the Blood of His Cross.Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
Hebrews 1:9: You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows."
Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2: The Same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3: All things were made through Him. Without Him was not anything made that has been made.Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 26 November 2002 2:56:39
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ozziepost
Say, Undiff, couldn't you turn the "Bolding" off in your posts? Would make it easier to read, easier on the eyes and all that.
Cheers, Ozzie
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UnDisfellowshipped
Lot definitely did some WICKED THINGS.
Yes, I would say it was definitely WICKED to offer his daughters to be raped.
Yes, I would say that it was definitely WICKED to get drunk and have sex with your daughters (especially falling for it the 2nd time).
God reads hearts though, and, compared to the rest of the people in Sodom and Gomorroh, the Bible calls Lot "righteous", so he must have been repentant of his sins, and he must have believed in God.
Also, when I read those Verses, it didn't sound like Lot's daughters were "little girls" to me.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 26 November 2002 3:19:26
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UnDisfellowshipped
Sorry about that, Ozzie, I'll edit the Post.
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Big Tex
Farkel
I read your challenge made to someone else to read the 31st chapter of Numbers. I have read this chapter many times in the past, but for whatever metaphysical reason, the potential impact on the virgin girls never entered my mind. Your description of their probable ordeal touched me and as I re-read the chapter I realized these were not one-dimensional characters in a fairy tale, but real people with real feelings. Shame on me.
Since leaving the organization, I've been examining my beliefs to determine what my belief system is about sans Watchtower. I've got a long way to go, but at this point I still believe in God. Almost everything else is fluid. Having said that, and with a little trepidation, I would like to offer a reply to you.
Someone once said that there have been only two "just" wars in American history: the Civil War and World War II. In both cases America fought not only an enemy that was a real threat, but evil as perceived through our culture, our philosphy and our morality. In both wars, innocents were brutalized, murdered and enslaved. In order to eradicate that evil, America was required to wage total war against not only the combatants but also the civilians. Yet that fact was, and is, justified as necessary in order to rid America of slavery in one war, and the world of racist despots bent on world domination in the other war. Whichever choice America made, whether to enter a war or not, people were going to be enslaved and killed. The South would not have ended slavery without Civil War, nor would Hitler, Mussolini or Japan have ended their racist conquests (which included thousands of rapes and murders of men, women and children). At that point the question was no longer if people die, but instead became which people die? Does the life of an American, English or Russian child have more value than the life of a German child killed in the Dresden fire bombing or a Japanese child killed in an atomic explosion? No. Yet to bring down the evil that America was confronted with, a choice had to be made.
Israel was on a war of conquest, I grant you. They wanted the land of Canaan for themselves and did not want to share. However, perception is reality. Israel viewed the inhabitants of Canaan as evil. In their view, the people who already lived there were "unclean" by practicing, among other things, ritual child sacrifice (not all the tribes certainly, but many did). Israel viewed themselves as being confronted with a way of life that was not only polar opposite to their belief system, but completely incapable of being integrated into their own. They saw themselves as facing the task of eradicating evil, as they perceived it. In their mind they had to not only conquer the land, but wipe out all evidence of the evil that was there. I submit that whether Israel was "right" to feel this way or not is irrelevant. The fact is they did feel this way, and so it colored their actions and manner of conducting what they viewed as a just war.
But what of God? Certainly God was faced with a difficult choice. Israel was now a free nation, but without a homeland, where could they go? To direct them to Israel would also keep a promise he had made hundreds of years earlier. Also consider this: the Bible itself says it is inspired by God, not dictated. I can be so inspired by hearing the story of the Titanic disaster that I write a screenplay and make a movie about it, but that doesn't mean my story is an accurate account. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that the men who speak for God, are not always doing so accurately. It is possible that the Israelites acted on their own. God only directed them to take vengence. Moses gave the order to kill the women and children. Did God approve of this action (and others like it)? It would not be consistent with a God of love. God directed Moses regarding the girls' fate only after they were enslaved.
But now however, my reply bogs down. You see, I understand your point about a God who would instruct, or condone or even approve of his "servants" brutalizing young girls in the manner you described. I have trouble reconciling the God of love having any part in that. In all candor, I have a big problem with God for not only this, but for allowing all the suffering humans have gone through. I am angry at him for this, and I've had the guts to tell him so. It's something I've struggled with since I was first raped when I was 3 years old. I've often wondered and asked him: why? I don't know.
I find I've come to the end of my reply to you and I realize it's no reply at all. A long time ago, I used to be quite intelligent. But not so much anymore. After all, what point did I really make? Now might be a good time to drop the big F-bomb on me. Or instead, maybe we should talk about pizza or whether Ben Affleck is really the sexiest man alive.
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Scorpion
avishai,
I have two daughters, 16 and 14 and a son that will be 13 December 28th.
You said: It says He had a problem w/ it, coz' he would'nt do it sober.
Where does the passage say this avishai?
I read that Lot got drunk on wine that his daughters gave him. This happened two nights in a row and his daughters lay with him.
Either Lot was a light weight as far as handling his wine or the wine given him was some powerful stuff. I have to agree with you though, for this to happen to Lot twice in two nights looks a bit suspicious.
Scorpion
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jesussaves
I see that some people on this message board are incapable of holding a discussion without hurling insults or namecalling. Furthermore, what purpose is served from trying to point out flaws in the bible? Are you trying to convince yourself that your unbelief is justified? Christians are going to dismiss every claim of atheists and atheists are going to dismiss every claim of Christians. What is even the point?