Islam's Ugly Assault on Beauty (page 3)

Perry

A lot of people that do really horrible things wear shoes......Do I sound like an idiot?

Bada Bing!

Right on Mary.

drahcir yarrum

Jesus:

That was an absolutely silly analogy to my point. Not very becoming of the son of God. Nice try though!

Since shoe wearing does not constitute a cause and groups of shoe wearers have not taken credit for atrocities resulting in the death of innocent people in the name of shoe wearing, your argument breaks down and makes no sense. That is precisely the lack of reasoning that allows so many people to be bamboozled by the JW's.

Richard

Edited by - drahcir yarrum on 5 December 2002 8:14:9

outoftheorg

In the area in which I live, which of course is the only area I have any accurate information on, there has been little or nothing in the way of condemnation of extremist Muslim acts, by the Muslim community.

However there have been subtle statements of support for ALL Muslim beliefs and the Koran. This looks and sounds like an unwillingness to condemn the evil acts of extremist Muslim societies.

There are also some Muslim individuals in this area who loudly proclaim the same message as is seen on this thread from our resident apologists.

None of this makes me or anyone else in this area comfortable with having these people in my country.

Outoftheorg

amac

I think I understand Expat's point. It is not that he is specifically trying to defend Islam as much as he is trying to point out the root of the problem is not Islam, but lack of human development and rights in certain parts of the world. Islam is simply the catalyst for acceptable violence. The same has been true for Christianity in times past in other parts of the world. With this said, however, without having studied Islam, it does seem to be a very GOOD catalyst for provoking violence, maybe even better than Christianity. But at the same time I recognize that as an assumption and not a conclusion unless I am willing to spend the time really looking into Islam.

outoftheorg -

You said "None of this makes me or anyone else in this area comfortable with having these people in my country." Perhaps they are saying the same thing about you...What makes this country more your's than it does their's?

Jesus Christ

Since shoe wearing does not constitute a cause and groups of shoe wearers have not taken credit for atrocities resulting in the death of innocent people in the name of shoe wearing,

Yes, and what does moderate Islam have to do with terrorist attacks? The middle eastern doctor down at the hospital has about as much to do with the bombings on NYC, the Pentagon, and Pen. as I do with the price of cow patties in India. Moderate Islamics do not constitute a cause and neither do they take credit for the deaths of innocent people. They're as repulsed by it as you. Just because a person happens to be a member of a very mainstream religion that has millions, if not billions, of peaceful followers that does not mean that they're out for blood of all people who are not and anyone who thinks so is a biggoted idiot. Go out and talk to some of them and you'll see that they hate the acts as much as you do.

Notice, I'm not defending Islam as much as I am defending the people who practice it. All religions are man made attempts to get closer to dad and unneeded. That doesn't mean that the people that practice a peaceful version of religion are horrible and violent though.

Mary

".....It is quite true that women are treated as second class humans in many Muslim countries and by many Muslim men. It is just as true that not all Muslim women are downtrodden and that not all Muslim men are downtreaders......."

I never said ALL of them were, but the very fact that many ARE and they have absolutely no recourse whatsoever is disgusting and pathetic in this day and age.......and the cause of this? A combination of their religion and culture.

You are correct that there seems to be more and more fanatics as time goes by. Have you ever considered if (a) this is factually correct? and (b) if it is, why this might be so?

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that for every suicide bomber that sets himself off, there's another 50 waiting to take their places right behind him. The reason for the increase of fanatical Muslims? Who knows for certain, but I think it's a combination of jealousy, ignorance and lack of education that is responsible. Countries where Islam is the dominant religion seem to lack the very basic necessities of life for their people. These people look at the material wealth of America and are furious that "infidels" have so much while they have so little. So what to do to even the score? Blow yourself you Kingdom Come......yes, that's right, strap some home made bombs to your chest, along with nails and all kinds of other dangerous materials, and go and blow yourself up along with as many Jews as possible. Not only will you have died a "martyr's death, but your family gets 25 grand as compensation and you get to go screw 70 virigins in paradise with Allah...........I know many Muslims at work who, although they're moderates, have said absolutely NOTHING in condemnation of Sept. 11th. Their silence speaks volumes.

outoftheorg

Amac I said nothing that would indicate that I felt this is more my country than theirs.

However I will say this. My parents came to this country and would never say anything about it except to support it. They truly wanted to be americans. My dad joined the navy at 18yrs of age to fight for this country and he did see battle.

These people in my area are almost all newcomers. They do not display the same traits and conduct one normally sees from those who are genuinely wanting to be americans and support this country. I and others here feel they want all the benefits and percs of living here but their loyalty lies elswhere. This feeling is generated by their actions and not from any bigotry on our parts.

I resent your inference that I am a bigot. This is in fact my country and I am proud of it. I do not want to see my country ridiculed senslessly by you or anyone.

Outoftheorg

expatbrit

Mary:

I don't think I have any disagreement with your last post. Amac did a good job of saying clearly what I've been waffling on about.

Generalities are a very commonly used method of propaganda. Our chums in Brooklyn use them frequently. The article cited at the beginning of the thread used them too. When they are used, it is frequently because the author has an agenda, which means they are not being objective. So questions like

do all the group in question really fit the description given?
what factual evidence is there to support the description?
could there be any exceptions?
is the implied characteristic of the group unique to the group, or a characteristic shown amongst segments of some other groups as well?

tend to show up the fallacious nature of using broad generalities to describe large groups of people. This is true of describing all Muslims as beauty-hating fanatics, or Americans as loud, obnoxious and ignorant of other cultures, or Jews as being tight-fisted, or blacks as being susceptible to criminal tendencies, or any other example you care to name.

That's pretty much what I've been trying to say, and it's definitely not a defence of Islamic religion, but an attempt not to fall into the mindset that "all Muslims are a threat".

Expatbrit

Edited by - expatbrit on 5 December 2002 15:1:53

drahcir yarrum

"Go out and talk to some of them and you'll see that they hate the acts as much as you do."

"Notice, I'm not defending Islam as much as I am defending the people who practice it."

Jesus:

I have done nothing more than express my belief that Islam is an uncivilized and barbaric religion. Many of it's adherants are certainly not murderers and will never be murderers or suicide bombers. But their hearts and minds are in sympathy with the bombers. You say they hate the acts as much as I do. . . well I haven't seen very many if any expressions of that perspective by Muslims. Now, if based on my observations about the nature of Islam I called for the imprisonment, deportation or genocide of all Muslims, I think you would have cause to worry about my motives. But I have not indicated that at all.

I view Islam much like I view the WTS. It's a dangerous belief system that defers action and responsibility for such actions to others. If the WTS expresses the view that "god" is justified in the wholesale slaughter of non-JW's, the rank and file followers don't express alarm or dismay, they express tacit approval and joy. Are there some JW's who are otherwise nice people. You bet your ass there are. But their theology is detrimental to themselves and others. So you can assume that I reject Islam and I reject JW's in part because of these beliefs. Am I biggoted? Well, I prefer to think I am intellectually critical of these groups of people and reject their beliefs. If that is the definition of biggoted to you, then I guess I am. I'm often suspicious of the motives of those who defend Islam. But that's just me.

May the Son of Man have peace!

Islam's Ugly Assault on Beauty

Share this