There will be more material from me on this matter, so keep looking. You too can monitor my posts here - just click on this:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/userposts.asp?id=1337&site=3
and add it to your bookmarks.
I have examples coming in due course, with absolute proof and with relevance to those who are, have been or who have some connection with JWs, of:
(a) some very - really, very - uneducated, stupid but opinionated persons; and
(b) how Cult bosses have carefully set out to fool the dumb and uneducated with carefully contrived lies, misquotings and distortion.
Do not miss it...
Re my immediately preceding post in this thread, the 2nd sentence of Note 2 should have read: "This produces results that agree with data for the whole period of nearly 58 years since the end of 2002, and for intermediate periods to 1983, for Jews everywhere (except for first-generation immigrants in Israel, for whom the net rate of population growth per annum is slightly higher, at just under 1% p.a., i.e. still much lower than the average for all people in the world)" Below, I reproduce the material from the "Jews in ISRAEL (1945-2002)" table above. The first column shows numbers in millions who arrived, and the second explicitly shows what numbers the above-stated small growth rate would have produced fron the arrival date to the end of 2002 (in my last post, I only showed the growth data in total - this is more transparent and easy to check by anyone with a calculator or spreadsheet).
1945 population . . . . . . 0.6 . . 1.1
1946-47 immigration . . . . 0.1 . . 0.2
1948-51 immigration . . . . 0.7 . . 1.1
1952-59 immigration . . . . 0.3 . . 0.5
1960-69 immigration . . . . 0.4 . . 0.6
1970-79 immigration . . . . 0.3 . . 0.4
1980-83 immigration . . . . 0.1 . . 0.1
1984-89 immigration . . . . 0.1 . . 0.1
1990-02 immigration . . . . 1.0 . . 1.1
TOTAL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5.2
And of course, 5.2 million is the present Jewish population of Israel, as appeared in my previous post.
The material in this thread provides ABSOLUTE REFUTATION to the public "Too many Holocaust survivors!" claim made in public by an internationally known, notorious neo-Nazi liar.
Besides SaintSatan, to whose honest and bona fide question I have nearly but not entirely completed my answer, no one has as yet requested me to refute any of the Holocaust Deniers' "evidence", "proof", etc. This is because most people consider it a non-issue; the Holocaust occurred, and occurred pretty exactly as the historians have been saying it did for 57 years. The whole matter is extremely painful to think about, but it must never be forgotten, lest it happen again. And the crude, disrespectful and distasteful way in which the Holocaust Deniers refer to it - complete with laughter and grins, can drive some to real rage. Don't fall for this. You know what they say - don't get mad, ..? "They" are going to play victim in any event, for all they are worth. And we know, the Nazis were the real victims in WW2, don't we?
Believe the Holocaust Deniers, and you get the impression that the Germans (including the S.S.) must have been incompetent morons, incapable of carrying out the simplest tasks even given massive resources, and then incapable of covering up at least some part of it. The Germans were anything but incompetent, and given many tens of thousands of slave laborers, had the will, equipment, knowledge, means and ruthlessness to accomplish much by way of establishing efficient conditions for mass murder.
As I have commented before, I am able to personally refute ALL of the Holocaust Revisionism/Denial material, and demonstrate the blatant and outrageous lies, deceit, misquoting, distortions, misrepresentations, idiocy, scientific stupidity, ignorance, ground-shifting, self-contradicting, use of "experts" who are nothing of the sort who make Hall look like a genius, and so on. But so can you, with a little research and thought - and I won't help you until I see that you have tried already. Here is how to start:
FIRST
Just click on Google Groups:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search
SECOND
Then as Newsgroup enter alt.revisionism .
The reason for doing this is that Holocaust-Deniers are, basically, great cowards. They prefer to output their unlearned filth and propaganda in unmoderated places where there ARE NO people able to technically refute them. Now alt.revisionism, part of Usenet, is a HUGE newsgroup, dozens of times bigger than this big board. It is entirely uncensored, BUT - and they hate this - there are quite a few people who are more than able to refute the idiot Holocaust-Deniers or Jew-haters or neo-Nazis, just as well as I can (and, in the case of a few, even better). And their specious arguments just get TORN TO SHREDS, again and again
So, it saves you time if you restrict the search to alt.revisionism - else you will end up seeing loads of apparently unrefuted Denier nonsense in rec.music.opera and soc.culture.turkish and alt.religion.jehovahs-witn and so on. They do this in order to make the unwary think their points have merit (after all, no one is refuting them - but this is only because no one who has the knowledge to refute them has seen their post). While this DB has about 20 forums (and most have fewer), 80-90% of the material goes into one of them. In contrast, Usenet has about 80,000 "forums" (called newsgroups) and about 10 million participants. Because there are so many forums, discipline is needed to prevent it being a bedlam: the rule is to stay on-topic. Of course the Hitler-worshipers do not do this, as their only hope of getting recruits is to post into places where there is no one to refute their cut-and-paste lies and deceit. But most of the neo-Nazis' arguments are spotted, and then crossposted (kind of like into more than one forum at once - not possible or desirable on a DB like this) back into alt.revisionism where you will see them, and where many learned people show up the Denier/neo-Nazi/Aryan Supremacist/Jew-hater for exactly what he is - a Fool or a Liar, or usually both.
And in alt.revisionism you will not be far from the works of Focus.
THIRD
And now put in your "Search Terms" - in the box next to Find messages with all of the words. For an example, try Auschwitz "water table" (a friend has just forwarded me some utter nonsense written - apparently recently - on that: if you cannot find SEVEN DISTINCT MAJOR LIES and DISTORTIONS in that one body of material, friend, you have not looked enough)
Alternatively, try Find messages with all of the words
Birkenau "water table".
Or even "water table" (Auschwitz OR Birkenau)
Hint 1: use the drop down box to select "100 messages".
FOURTH
Click on the "Google Search" button.
1-2-3-4.. easy!
Now the threads matching your search condition are listed, click on the "View Thread (xxx articles)" links one after the other (use the right mouse button and opt to "Open in New Window" for each one, maybe).
Hint 2: Threads where "xxx" (the number of messages in that thread) is large are obviously the ones where the best refutations are likely to be found - concentrate on first looking at threads containing at least 10 articles unless your search does not produce many matches. Well, the last search I suggested in this post - for "water table" (Auschwitz OR Birkenau) - produces over six hundred and thirty threads, so you won't be short of material! And that was threads, some containing hundreds of articles each!
Once you get the idea, you can swiftly see how to debunk all the revisionists' lies and distortions (which means, in my experience, all of their material, as - in my experience - their material is nothing but an unending stream of lies and distortion).
You may be surprised that ALL the material the Deniers cut and paste here and there has been so thoroughly refuted. Which they don't tell you about. Tells you volumes about them, their methods and their motives, doesn't it?
A cause that needs lies in order to recruit. Just like the Watchtower.
Getting even????
All but a few of the Holocaust Deniers stay anonymous while purveying their filth over the internet. This is because they fear some enterprising soul arranging a delivery - through the letterboxes of a few thousand of their physically closest real-life neighbors - of an uncommented collection of their disgusting writings ("fair use" quoting in line with http://fairuse.stanford.edu and "fairly quoted" material in its proper context and providing a way to find the whole material removes other issues in the U.S.; this however does not comprise legal advice nor am I admitting to being or not being an attorney). The motive for such a course would have to be the public interest rather than anything malicious - naturally. This drastic step has been taken a few times, and the results produced are, well, spectacular.. of course. I don't personally condone such derring-do, but there are many who do. And, personally speaking, if I happened to live near to some rabid nutter, I would appreciate being told about it so I could take appropriate "defensive" measures.
Which brings me back to my question: Why [do] People Believe Weird Things? Why Keep Repeating Lies that have been Disproved (i.e., utterly refuted) thousands - tens of thousands - of times?
The answer, often, that it is the only way that certain mediocre, uneducated, stupid, weak-minded people can get the attention they so desparately crave - the recognition they fervently seek. It allows them to forget the mess, confusion and failure, personal, social and economic (of course they have scapegoats to blame for these failures, seldom acknowledging it is their own shameful, lazy or otherwise undesirable conduct whose fruits they are enjoying, rather than because of their "Jews" or whatever) of their real lives. It makes these impotent ones feel powerful (in their own "minds", at least). This is why they choose to believe they possess truths the rest of us are too dumb to see, and ignore the plain evidence in front of their noses that they are spouting merely trash, lies and nonsense.
And so the sort of twit who you would not trust to flush a toilet, let alone wash your windows, starts arrogantly "debating" (well, not really, but let us pretend cut-&-paste-ing from sites filled with discredited data comprises "debate") points of logic, interpretation, science and history with highly competent (and qualified - sometimes, even world-renowned) mathematicians, authors, scientists and historians, whose only reason for responding at all is so as not to leave disgusting lies unrefuted.
And this is one of the major reasons why silly or deceitful little people believe Weird Things. Because they want to do so. It makes them feel exactly what they aren't - important and learned. .
--
Focus
(Just say Nein! to the Neo's Class)
Edited by - Focus on 10 December 2002 23:10:22
