How to help a JW using 607, 1914 stuff.

by apocalypse 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Shakita

  Scholar: Read the scriptures more carefully. At Jeremiah 25:11 it reads: "And all this land will become a devestated place, an object of astonishment, and these NATIONS will have to serve the King of Babylon for seventy years." You'll note Scholar that the scripture doesn't specify that only Jerusalem would lie desolate for seventy years. It says that the nations would serve the King of Babylon for seventy years. That's why you'll find Daniel speaking about the end of seventy years of servitude at Dan: 9:2. It reads: In the first year of his reigning I myself, Daniel, discerned by the number of books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had ocurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devestations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years." Daniel said that in 539 BC. He recognized that the seventy years of servitude had ended. Now if you believe that Jerusalem was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 607 BC then that would only be 68 years and not 70 years. The Babylonian empire routed the Assyrians in 609 BC, thus the seventy years of servitude under Babylon's yoke began in that year and ended 70 years later in 539 BC when the Medes and the Persians defeated Belshazzar.

  Neo-Babylonian scholars have no doubts that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in 587/586 BC. Astronomical cuneiform documents were found in Mesopotamia that give an absolute chronology to the neo-Babylonian period. The Watchtower resists at all costs the certain fact that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586 BC because that would crumble their seven times of 2,520 years as starting in 607 BC and ending in 1914 with the supposed invisible return of Jesus Christ. If Jesus didn't return invisibly in 1914 then Jesus did not inspect the Christian denominations of the world. That means he didn't choose the Watchtower as his special instrument to spread the good news. That would mean that the Governing Body has no true authority and has been prophesying falsely for over 100 years about the "invisible" return of Jesus Christ. That would mean that the men at Brooklyn would have to humble themselves and admit to their 6 million adherents that they had been duping them with false prophesy for 123 years. That would mean that the seven times of the gentiles is just an invention of the Watchtower. Or more correctly that the WT simply borrowed this formula from others that had lived before them and had then adopted this theory as their own. As the scriptures clearly indicate Jesus has been ruling since 33 AD after his death and resurrection and has been ruling amidst his enemies ever since. There is far more detail on this subject and I will share it at another time. Let the bible speak for itself. In the future read the scriptures without any interference from the WT. You will be surprised at what the scriptures really say.

  Mr. Shakita

  Edited by - shakita on 17 December 2002 23:21:54
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  rem

  Shakita,

  I completely agree with you. That is why I said:

  We have to force historical evidence to fit your interpretation of the bible instead of letting the historical evidence speak for itself.

  I realize that there are interpretations that fit well with secular history. You have done some good research, though. Keep up the good work!

  rem
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  Farkel

  No one has bothered to address MY evidence, and I can defend it.

  Farkel
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  scholar

  Shakita

  You have mistakenly used Jeremiah 25: 11 without mentioning the next verse 12. These two texts are somewhat problematic for the claim that the seventy years is only applicable to servitude. In fact, these two texts are undermine the Jonsson hypothesis because the emhasis of seventy years and its context are clearly not identical. This is why a major commentary gives a different context between verse 11 and verse 12..

  Scholars have no consensus about how the seventy years is to be understood, The Society has its interpretation and Jonssson has his own viiew of servitude. Scholars do not agree as to whether Jerusalem fell in 586 or 587 despite the supposedly overwhelming secular evidence. Methinks the smart money is on 607, it is evidentiary, consistent with biblical history and leads to the prophetic date of 1914.

  scholar BA MA Stidies in Religion.
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  City Fan

  Scholar,

  Which major commentary ??

  Can you point me to a non-WT book that argues 607 as the fall of Jerusalem??

  How can 1914 have any prophetic meaning now that the 'generation' doctrine has been changed??

  Thanks.
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  link

  Everyone is arguing about what the WBTS says about the date for the fall of Jerusalem against what the historical facts as they are presently known tell us. This is wrong! What we need to know is what the WBTS really believes is the truth about the date for the fall of Jerusalem and this we can easily find out. I know because I have seen it done and this is how it was done:

  A Witness in good standing in a congregation writes to the Society for clarification of a matter that the local Elders have not been able to clear up for him. His questions are (explicitly) as follows:

  1. "Due to the large amount of historical evidence that came to light during the first half of the last century, can the Society confirm that during the past fifty years it has reviewed all of the historical evidence currently available at the time regarding the date of 607 B.C.E. for the fall of Jerusalem?

  My notes: We know from Ray Franzs COC that the information has been reviewed during the past half century but we are giving them the opportunity to refute what Ray says.

  2. If the answer to the above question is 'yes', can the Society please confirm that the overwhelming majority of the historical information that they reviewed at that time confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt that the fall of Jerusalem did in fact take place in 607 B.C.E.?

  For the sake of clarity and brevity, as I am aware that your time is extremely valuable, I would request that your response be limited to 'yes' or 'no' answers."

  My notes: The response from the Society will reveal their true position. It is quite possible that they will completely ignore question (a) and proceed to change question (b) to read as if it were asking what the Bible said on the matter not what historical research reveals. Whatever happens they will not give a clear answer to either question.

  This tells us that 'yes' they have done the research and 'no' it did not confirm 607 B.C.E. as the date for the fall of Jerusalem.

  BUT DONT TELL ANYBODY.

  Unfortunately there is no JW in existence who is brave enough to ask the Society these questions because they could not cope with the outcome. That just about sums it up.

  link

  formatting

  Edited by - link on 18 December 2002 8:7:11
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  artful

  Methinks the smart money is on 607, it is evidentiary, consistent with biblical history and leads to the prophetic date of 1914.
  Now there's an example of circular reasoning if I ever saw one!!

  "607 is accurate because it leads to the prophetic date of 1914....and 1914 is a prophetic date because 607 leads us to it"

  Scholar, you have been trained well!!

  Artful
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  Shakita

  Scholar: You are contradicting yourself. You say you will stick with 607 BC as the date for Jerusalem's destruction by Nebuchadnezzar, but you offer no proof or corroboration for that date. Even if you accept that date for the sake of argument, then the scriptures are contradictory because the overthrow of Belshazzar happened in 539 BC. That would be 68 years later, not seventy years later. It is clear that the nations servitude under the Babylonian empire would end when Babylon was overthrown. In 537 BC, when the Jews returned to their homeland two years had already transpired under the rule of the Medes and the Persians. So, for those two years they were no longer under servitude to the Babylonians since they had been dispatched in 539 BC.

  The only reason I didn't type down Jeremiah 25:12 is because it was late and I had to do something silly called "sleep." I am going to type Jeremiah 25:8-12. It reads: "Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies has said, "For the reason that you did not obey my words, here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even [sending] to Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against these nations round about; ( did you notice Scholar that the judgement included the nations round about, not just Jerusalem) and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at to time indefinite. And I will destroy out of them the sound of exaltation and the sound of rejoicing, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. And all this land must become a devestated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations (notice Scholar the phrase THESE NATIONS) will have to serve the King of Babylon seventy years." "And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the King of Babylon and against that nation, is the utterance of Jehovah, 'their error even against the land of the Chaldeans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite." As I stated in my previous post, the seventy years of servitude began in 609 BC when Babylon defeated the Assyrians. Thus began the seventy years of domination of Babylon over the nations, that also included Judah.

  Jeremiah 25:1 refers to the time when this prophesy, discussed above, took place. The prophecy was given eighteen years before Jerusalem's destruction in the fourth year of Jehoiakim's reign which is dated to 605 BC. The battle of Carchemish also occurred in 605 BC. Nebuchadnezzar scored a decisive victory, decimating the Egyptian army. The nations in that area became vassals to Nebuchadnezzar and in that same year he carried away some captive Jews to Babylon, among which was included Daniel. Notice Scholar at Jeremiah 27:8,11 the warning Jehovah gave through Jeremiah. The people of Judah did not have to be destroyed if they would have willingly put themselves under Nebuchadnezzar's yoke. If they had not rebelled the land would not have lain desolate for any period of time because the prophesy of the seventy years was referring to Babylon's domination of all the surrounding nations. Note what Jeremiah 27:8,11 says: "And it must occur that the nation and the kingdom that will not serve even him, even Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon; and the one that will not put its neck under the yoke of the King of Babylon, with the sword, and with the famine and with the pestilence I shall turn my attention upon that nation, is the utterance of Jehovah, until I shall have finished them off by his hand. 11"And as for the nation that will bring its neck under the yoke of the King of Babylon and actually serve him, I will also let it rest upon its ground, is the utterance of Jehovah, and it will certainly cultivate it and dwell in it." It's obvious that many of the last kings of Judah rebelled against Nebuchadnezzar, eventually bringing his wrath. You are familiar with Zedekiah's rebellion and how he was caught, his sons killed in front of him and then he was blinded. All of that could have been avoided had he listened to Jehovah and had served the King of Babylon.

  My advice to you is to do your own research. Look at the material objectively, with the intent to uncover the truth, whatever that may be. You can't force a belief to fit a certain circumstance just because that is what you have been taught by the WT. Also keep in mind, as one of the posters mentioned, that the WT downplayed 1914 by coming up with the "new light", this generation. They came up with this "new light" because it was obvious that the 1914 generation was dying off and thus their prophesy concerning Jesus's invisible return in 1914 has been unequivocally proved false. So, to take the heat off themselves and continue to seek new converts they were forced to provide this "new light." One more thing, truth is never apostasy, just because the WT says someone is apostate doesn't make it so. I have objectively considered Carl Olof Jonsson's treatise and I see it is a work that is clear, concise, to the point, well documented and truthful. To call someone that tells the truth an apostate is slander. The only reason that the Wt hurls that accusation is to prevent its adherents from finding out the truth. They will have to answer to our Heavenly Father for their sins.

  Mr. Shakita
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  uriah

  In 2002, the brothers were in a quandry about the 1914/607 dates. Some had departed from the faithful flock and were casting damming aspertions against Jehovah's people. What should they do? In the face of overwhelming evidance that Satan had promuglated it seemed certain that many would fall under the heel of doubt and dispair and take to the road that is broad and spacious to everlasting death, the second death from, which there is no return. The cry went out "To whom shall we look?" "To what shall be pledge our hope and lives?" This call did not go unanswered! In a blinding flash of light the Watchtower of 19th December 2002 said "WE shall Honour Jehovah and his people WILL be saved" This blinding flash of divine light infused power and renewed vigour in Jehohvahs people. In their thousands they went to the street dissemminating the good news declared in Kingdom News 39 entitled "Jerusalem Fell in 607 - how this affects you and YOUR future!!". Many brothers and sisters related grand and fine experiences of how truth-hungry, humble, right-hearted 'ones' joyfully accepted the truths from the grand table of Jehovah. These humble 'ones' did not sniff at the grand provisions like those in utter and satanic darkenss, those who loved the darkness and hated the light. Those who would try and ensnare those right-hearted ones with false reasonings and demonic exhaltions. In the bright light of bible truth these ones feared to stand before the charging forces of the only true God. Clearly, then, the blinding flash of divine approval was upon his people, leading them to further truths and joyus association with the whole association of brothers. What a resounding call for action from the faithful slave in response to the cries for help from the sheep! Are we not bountiously well fed brothers?

  There, that is proof enough.

  Silence you doubters and would be overthrowers of the temple of 607.

  Edited by - uriah on 19 December 2002 8:14:26
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  link

  uriah,

  If thats a satirical post you just made its "a bit close to home"!

  link