The "Clean Organization" Myth

metatron

I just had to laugh. The old congregation I used to attend now has two young
unmarried sisters who got knocked up by their 'worldly' boyfriends. One was baptised
but repentant ( they seem to repent when the pregnancy shows) and the other WISELY
never got baptised - so there ain't sh*t the corrupt elders can do about it.

I wish the girls all success in motherhood - but wonder:

How do these things make a "clean organization"? Suppose every congregation
member is an adulterer, fornicator, child molester, or thief BUT ALL REPENTANT?

So, they get divorced, get arrested, get pregnant and everybody sees the results
and adjusts. How does this result in moral uplift? At some point, it all becomes
'normal' and other Witnesses do the same - in Jehovah's "clean organization".

There are elders who can df people and keep the organization "clean"
but that doesn't mean much. Is a city free from crime just because it has
police?

And who watches the watchers? Other good old boys? Their elder buddies
and pals?

And who can disfellowship the Governing Body for officially supporting the
United Nations - just like joining the YMCA or the military?

Are they "clean" if they agree to lie to authorities? or cover up crimes?
or engage in "Theocratic War Strategy"?

Are they clean if they use shunning to coerce people into attending meetings?

Are they really "clean" if they keep losing revenue because Jehovah isn't
blessing them with lots of cash flow?

metatron

freedom96

This is a question I have asked myself many times. In the hall I grew up in, none of these type of things happened. It was very strict, and I think people were scared to do much of anything. In the 3 halls I went to since then, they all seemed pretty clean.

I get on this site, and hear all these stories about people having sex, doing drugs, smoking, like it was happening all the time. I really struggle with wondering if in fact the WTS is not as clean as it says it is.

I always thought it was, or at least more so than elsewhere, but I just don't know.

metatron

What REALLY stunned me ( and left me depressed, wondering what a fool I was) was the
aftermath of resigning as an elder and leaving the congregation.

I consider myself to be discerning and aware of my surroundings -- but I was shocked
to find evidence of ALL KINDS of ROT that was carefully hidden by my elder "friends".
Child molesting, lying ( about BIG STUFF), spiritism, and double standards WILDLY
APPLIED - with no lack of evidence of its reality.

This is a very secretive organization - but no organization can be clean without
transparency and open discussion. Since the internet NOW provides some of this,
we're hearing about it.

metatron

Analysis

freedom96

I have had the same experience as you.

I think most witnesses have a moral standard somewhat higher than the normal citizen does in their area. But, out of a congregation of 100+ people you will still have some who are even worse then the public at large.

My viewpoint is that Witnesses change just like the public at large, but with some delay.

For example 50 years ago if the woman was unmarried and got pregnant the guy would normally marry her and no one was the wiser. 25 years ago witnesses did the same thing. But, not anymore!

When I was in grade school I only had 3 friends (all non-witnesses) who had divorced parents. Twenty years later is was almost 50%. Divorce and remarriage was never heard of for witnesses. But, not anymore! People used to stay together for the Kids. But, not anymore!

Thirty years ago I felt I could trust almost any witness. But, in the last 15 years that has changed, just because they are a friend and a witness, does not mean that I can trust them to do work for me. In fact, I have heard more than one witness say that they will not do business with another witness.

I now realize the type of person that will become a witness now, comes with a great deal of baggage. No matter what improvement any religion might have on that type of person the individual will still be more likely then others to have problems. So that is what we see in almost all congregations.

I still see success stories in congregations in my area. Religion can help people. Parents can raise children with high morals. But, the problems people have today are far different then when I was a child. When an individual grows up in an environment where security and love are lacking, then problems exist. Conversion to any religion does not automatically change the person forever.

So while I basically agree with metatrons observations, I think it reflects the general trend in society as a whole.

metatron

I think that most of us, despite our bad experiences with the Watchtower, would like
to see things work out for damaged hurting people within its ranks - that marriages be
happy and kids turn out OK.

Yet, the Society seems to be pushing in the other direction by turning emphasis
away from individual conscience and towards their own cult-like rules.

or putting far too much emphasis on outward matters like peddling magazines and
attending dead meetings. Look at how charity and compassion get little attention
amidst Witness parents complaints about their unloving children - little wonder
that things turn out badly for many!

Remember, this is the organization that, in Rutherford's day, criticised building
Christian virtues as "character building" - while emphasizing door to door work.

They are quite capable of this kind of distortion now - and I would argue,
are guilty of promoting a self-glorifying cult at the expense of building
loving, capable individuals - especially since the whole concept of being
an individual , with your own thoughts and interests, is anathema to them.

metatron

Nosferatu

Reminds me of this one sweet lady in the congregation I was in. In my opinion, she was the only REAL good person there. She had saved up enough money to live on until she died, and she was budgeting her money in such a way that she could survive off it. Wish I could do that. Anyway, this one Ministerial Servant knew of how much money she had. He told her that a brother he was friends with was starting a new business, and needed some money to get it started. He promised her that she would get more than twice as much back. She refused. However, the Servant pushed, pushed, and kept bugging her about it, making it sound like such a good idea. She finally gave in.

The business flopped, and she lost all her money. She went to the elders about this situation. He was repentant. Now, this sweet lady had to go out and get a job. She's still pissed off about it, and I don't blame her. So much for the trustworthy brothers.

metatron

exactly, Nosferatu

Everybody's repentant .... but can you really think of it as "clean" or something
you'd care to associate with or even brag about?

metatron

Analysis

metatron said:

"They are quite capable of this kind of distortion now . .

The sad thing is that for most of my life as a JW they would write very good articles in the magazines about issues related to family life. If people would apply the counsel their lives would have been enriched. And then with one paragraph or sentence they would put all the good information that witnesses should follow subservient to mandates to attend meetings and going out in service. Sadly too many would only remember that one sentence or paragraph.

Many JWs have lost their sense of balance, their sense of what is truly important. These are the ones that are having problems and this group sadly includes many Elders and COs. Like you I could no longer stand it and resigned from being an Elder. 18 months later I stopped going in service.

With that said, I still dont think that JWs are any worse then the public at large. The sad thing is they no longer meet the ideals that they used to hold so highly.

Gig

When you get right down to it, JW's are just people...some good and some bad. To somehow arrive at some percentage regarding their conduct verses non JW's is near impossible. My experience with JW's doesn't suggest anything outstanding, and certainly doesn't agree with their endless claims of tremendous love, behavior, and obedience to Jah so far and above other christians I know. Clean? Yes, but not to the extent they boast about. I actually equate the word "clean" to their DF ing, whereas they enjoy a "cleansing" each time another prophecy fails. But if they didn't believe it to be true, all of it, then they aren't good witnesses according to "what is written" by the WT.

Even well behaved JW's are incapable of adding much to society at large, in effect they are forbidden. Good behavior doesn't automatically mean good people anyway, your heart has to be right. The WT mold doesn't allow much for good open-heartedness to outsiders where it counts the most. The Bible asks, what good is it to you to love those who love you?

DanTheMan

Met, at a congregation I attended, there was a period in the late 90's when no less than 4 of the young raised-JW girls in the cong got pregnant by worldy guys, got df'd, and reinstated 6 months later after doing their ridiculous "sit in the back and don't talk to anyone" repentance dance. It was comical, and tragic.

The "Clean Organization" Myth

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