Just to add a further point to Jesus knowing all:
Peter (at John 21:17) says "Lord, you know all things..."
Help on translation of Lord/Jehovah in NWT
by eyeslice 27 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Earnest
Hi UnD,
I would love to hear an explanation of how Jesus can be "He who searches the minds and hearts" when the Old Testament says that Jehovah Only is the One who searches the hearts of men, unless Jesus is God.
In fact, the Old Testament says that Jehovah Only is the One who knows the hearts of men, so that does not in itself preclude others from searching their hearts. But, more to the point, Solomon did not know of Jesus, nor that Jehovah would commit all judging to the Son (John 5:22), when he said "you [Jehovah] alone know the heart of the sons of mankind" in his prayer of dedication. Likewise, Peter was not stating an absolute truth when he said "Lord, you know all things..." (cp. Matthew 24:36), he was speaking of Jesus knowing that Peter loved him. That having been said I must add that I will not support a further discussion of the trinity on this thread as the subject is one of translation, not of doctrine, and the nature of God and Christ have received exhaustive coverage on another recent thread.
The entire context of Romans 10:8-13 is talking about JESUS being LORD.
It would make no sense why the Apostle Paul would all of a sudden switch over in Romans 10:13 and start talking about the Father.
Rather, Paul was quoting Joel 2:32 and applying it to JESUS, which shows that Paul was saying that JESUS is JEHOVAH (but not the Father).
Hmmm. While I do not think that Paul was saying JESUS is JEHOVAH, I can accept that he may have been applying the principle of Joel 2:32 to Jesus. I would agree that in my mind there is sufficient doubt as to who verse 13 is referring to, to have made it unwise to use the Name in this case.
Also, you said that "Jehovah God" in Revelation is a "Hebraism".
What's your point?
Does that justify adding "Jehovah" and removing "Lord" in Revelation?
What I said in my previous post is that you do not get the expression "Lord God" in the OT whereas "Jehovah God" occurs many times. If we then find "Lord God" in the NT and we know that, although it never occurred in the OT, it was added to the Septuagint by copyists in every place where "Jehovah God" occurred, then there is good cause to restore the original expression in the NT.
I hope that I don't disappoint in that I am unwilling to argue every case where 'Jehovah' is used in the NT. I can only write on what I am convinced to be true and when we go beyond reason or scripture that doesn't amount to much.
Earnest
Edited by - Earnest on 27 December 2002 21:33:4
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UnDisfellowshipped
Good points Earnest!
I will try to reply to them later today/tomorrow.
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UnDisfellowshipped
I just found an OT Scripture where the phrase "Lord God" is used ("Adonay Elohim"):
Daniel 9:3: I set my face to the Lord God, to seek by prayer and petitions, with fasting and sackcloth and ashes.
I believe that may be the only occurence in the OT.
However, the phrase "Lord [Adonay] our God [Elohim]" occurs three times in the OT:
Psalm 90:17, Daniel 9:9, and Daniel 9:15.
And, the phrase "Lord [Adonay] my God [Elohim]" occurs two times in the OT:
Psalm 38:15 and Psalm 86:12.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 28 December 2002 7:6:27
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Earnest
This verse is one of the 134 alterations to the divine name by Jewish scribes. The best and early MSS read "I set my face to Jehovah God..." These alterations are listed in The Massorah, by C. D. Ginsburg (New York, 1975, Vol. I, pp.25,26).I just found an OT Scripture where the phrase "Lord God" is used ("Adonay Elohim"):
Daniel 9:3: I set my face to the Lord God, to seek by prayer and petitions, with fasting and sackcloth and ashes.
Appendices on the Massorah and the Sopherim at http://www.levendwater.org/companion/frameset.htm?index.html&inhoudsopgave.htm also provide corroboration.
Edited by - Earnest on 28 December 2002 22:3:40
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Earnest
It may be helpful to provide some more information about these scribal alterations as they might otherwise seem quite random and capricious. The Jewish scribes took great pains to transcribe the Law and the Prophets accurately but they did make some changes to the text. This was done where they believed they were correcting errors previously made, to clarify the intention of the scriptures, and to show greater respect for the divine name.
However, in order that the original text was not lost they kept records of these changes in what is known as the Massorah. The Companion Bible says of the Massorah (see Appendix 30 at http://www.levendwater.org/companion/frameset.htm?index.html&inhoudsopgave.htm) :
All the oldest and best manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible contain on every page, beside the Text (which is arranged in two or more columns), a varying number of lines of smaller writing, distributed between the upper and lower margins. This smaller writing is called the Massorah Magna or Great Massorah, while that in the side margins and between the columns is called the Massorah Parva or Small Massorah.
"The word Massorah is from the root masar, to deliver something into the hand of another, so as to commit it to his trust. Hence the name is given to the small writing referred to, because it contains information necessary to the Massorites (those into whose trust the Sacred Text was committed), so that they might transcribe it, and hand it down correctly.The divine name was substituted under the following conditions :
- When a man directly addresses Jehovah. For example, Exodus 4:10,13; 5:22; and 34:9 (twice).
- When anyone makes a statement that brings God into a personal relationship with himself. For example, Numbers 14:17; Judges 6:15 and 13:8.
- When Jehovah directly intervenes in man's affairs it was often changed to reflect a more impersonal involvement of God. For example, 2 Kings 7:6; Isaiah 3:17,18; 4:4 and 7:14.
- When anyone caused a reproach against God. For example, 2 Kings 19:23.
- When anyone reported to have seen Jehovah. For example, Isaiah 6:1,8; Amos 7:7 and 9:1.
All the verses you refer to are included in the 134 emendations of the sopherim (see Appendix 32 at http://www.levendwater.org/companion/frameset.htm?index.html&inhoudsopgave.htm) :
Daniel 9:3 "And I proceeded to set my face to Jehovah God..."
Daniel 9:9 "To Jehovah our God belong the mercies and the acts of forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him."
Daniel 9:15 "And now, O Jehovah our God...we have sinned, we have acted wickedly."
- 'Jehovah' is also substituted in verses 4,7,16,17 & 19 (thrice) of Daniel 9.
Psalm 38:15 "...You yourself proceeded to answer, O Jehovah my God."
- 'Jehovah' is also substituted in verses 9 & 22 of Psalm 38.
Psalm 86:12 "I laud you, O Jehovah my God..."
- 'Jehovah' is also substituted in verses 3,4,5,8,9 & 15 of Psalm 86.
Psalm 90:17 "And let the pleasantness of Jehovah our God prove to be upon us..."
- 'Jehovah' is also substituted in verse 1 of Psalm 90.
The remaining instances are :
Genesis 18: 3,27,30-32 ; 19: 18 ; 20: 4 .
Exodus 15: 17; Joshua 7: 8; I Kings 3: 10,15 ; 22: 6; Ezra 10: 3; Nehemiah 1: 11 ; 4: 14; Job 28: 28 .
Psalm 2: 4 ; 16: 2 ; 22: 30 ; 30: 8 ; 35: 17,22,23 ; 37: 13 ; 39: 7 ; 40: 17 ; 44: 23 ; 51: 15 ; 54: 4 ; 55: 9 ; 57: 9 ; 59: 11 ; 62: 12 ; 66: 18 ; 68: 11,17,19,22,26,32 ; 73: 20 ; 77: 2,7 ; 78: 65 ; 79: 12 ; 89: 49,50 ; 110: 5 ; 130: 2,3,6 .
Isaiah 6: 11 ; 7: 20 ; 8: 7 ; 9: 8,17 ; 10: 12 ; 11: 11 ; 21: 6,8,16 ; 28: 2 ; 29: 13 ; 30: 20 ; 37: 24 ; 38: 14 , 16 ; 49: 14 .
Lamentations 1: 14,15 (twice) ; 2: 1,2,5,7,18,19,20 ; 3: 31,36,37,58 .
Ezekiel 18: 25,29 ; 21:9; 33: 17,20; Daniel 1: 2; Amos 5: 16 ; 7: 8; Micah 1: 2; Zechariah 9: 4; Malachi 1: 12,14 .
There are also eight instances where the scribes substituted the divine name with 'God'.
They are:
Psalm 14:1,2,5; 53:1,2,4,5,6.
So I would still maintain that you do not get the expression "Lord God" in the OT, at least not before it was altered. Hope this helps to explain why.
Earnest
Edited by - Earnest on 28 December 2002 22:8:25
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onacruse
hehe...I just got back from my honeymoon, and I see that y'all have been very busy! LOL
I would like to offer one point for consideration: Even granting that each and every occurence of the name "Jehovah" in the NWT NT could be justified in some way, still begs the question---
Why couldn't Almighty God have seen to it that His Name was preserved in at least a few of the extant Greek NT manuscripts?
My opinion: Because it doesn't matter to Him. And if it doesn't matter to Him, why should it matter to me? And, I think that believing in the Deity of Christ resolves most, if not all, of the issue.
Craig
PS: I am not, I repeat NOT, trying to turn this into a Trinity thread! LOL
Edited by - onacruse on 28 December 2002 22:12:4
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Earnest
Hi Craig,
Good to have the two of you back, and none the worse for wear.
I would suggest that translation is a science, not an act of faith, and so whether or not God's name is included should be a matter of textual criticism (establishing what was written when we do not have the original writings) and not an assumption of what God wants.
I agree it would have been much clearer if Almighty God had seen to it that His Name was preserved in at least a few of the extant Greek NT manuscripts. It would also have been clearer if he had preserved at least a few of the original writings. But, as far as we know, he didn't. Does that mean it doesn't matter to him ? He has allowed (and sometimes endorsed) genocide many times over. Does that mean pain and suffering don't matter to him ? I have no satisfying answer to these questions but simply suggest that we cannot always read into what God wants by what he allows.
Earnest