Bible is God's word?

by Moxy 53 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  gumby

  UD,

  We should all be like the "Noble-Minded Beroeans" from the Book of Acts who questioned the Apostle Paul

  Amen bro. UD.....you will see there is much more to the bible story if you check it out.
• 

  logical

  Anyone who reads the bible properly will realise that the bible itself tells us what the Word of God really is, and it points to something other than itself...

  John 1:1
  John 1:14
  Revelation 19:13

  It is none other than Christ, the law is no longer written on stone tablets for us, but it is written on our hearts.

  There is so much more the bible tells us about itself, like it tells us that Acts and Luke are eyewitness accounts, not books inspired of God like Revelation is... Acts 1:1. Luke 1:1-5, Revelation 1:1, these are not the only ones, OT accounts such as Kings, Chronicles etc contradict each other and are clearly not inspired.

  Putting your faith in a book, and not the one it testifies to is not the right way...... John 5:39-40. It can go horribly wrong from there, you start to miss the point and you end up spending too much time studying and recruiting and end up like MDS or the WTS instead of doing the simple things we are expected to do like charity and love.

  The bible is just a book, with errors and additions / ommissions from what was originally given to man. Anyone who claims the bible is unaltered and preserved through history are misled.
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  rebel

  It still boils down to the same thing.

  If I loved my children, and I wanted them to know me and understand me, and I wrote them a letter, I would make sure they could understand it. I would not include puzzles, riddles, symbols, contradictions etc. How would that bring them closer to me? I would not expect them to be able to decipher what was symbolic and what was literal. I would not punish them if they were unable to understand the muddled letter. I would not elevate those of my children who were able to understand most of it over those that couldn't. Basically, I would MAKE SURE that they could understand EVERY single word - nothing would be open to interpretation - it is not clever or kind to hide important information which can either lead to life or death. Why was the Bible deliberately written in such a confusing, puzzling, symbolic (though sometimes non-symbolic), complicated way? If someone could answer that, I would be so happy!

  xxR
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  Moxy

  Gumby said:
  

  there is not ONE writer other than CHRISTIAN writers that wrote about Jesus....other than Josephus who mentioned little about him and his writing is believed to be forged as it does't rhyme with the writing style he had. Why? With the many who wrote back then wouldn't you think someone would have written about a man who turned water to wine, walked on water, raised the dead, healed the terminally ill???? None!

  
  I disagree on this and I will post more info soon

  this is indeed a controversial point, and gumby may be stating the matter too simply. certainly there were other writers that wrote about jesus, but the question is where did they get their information? if their information came only from what christians were saying about jesus, then this is not independant evidence. tacitus, for example, writing in 115, is certainly basing his statement about jesus on christian testimony, not from 90-year-old roman records.

  exactly what was included in the original testimonium flavianum is one of the most common questions for debate in biblical scholarship. almost no one thinks josephus wrote the entire thing, so at a minimum the entire thing is called into question. below is the entire testimonium with the parts most commonly believed to be christian insertions in bold:

  Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.

  but how exactly does this show the bible is gods word?

  mox
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  RWC

  I have been coming to this board for a while now and have engaged in several of these debates always taking the sie of the Christian defender of the Bible. I have noticed two groups of people who take the opposite side. One that has a gneuine respect for others beliefs and who will engage in an honest intellectual discourse and one that will be litle others beliefs and raise nothing but sarcasm and insults. To the first group I respect your right to disagree. To the second I would ask that you attempt to refrain from being the non believer's equivilant of a fundamentalist.

  As for the Bible being God's word, trying to prove this to someone who will throw out the Bible itself is like trying to prove who won the presidential election without counting the votes. The Bible itself must be the starting point to prove its veracity as God's word. What does it say about its origin, what is its history, has it stood the test of time and is it internally consistent. From there you can go to outside references to prove its validity. I would start with the story of Jesus and the historical accuracy of his existence. Unlike the bold statements that there is no proof of him outside of the Bible, that is incorrect. But beyond what was written about him outside of the Bible, look at how did his life changed the whole social structure of the world he lived in. In a matter of a very short time in historical terms, Jewish culture was changed because of his existence.

  Also, look at the number of people who went to their deaths claiming to be eyewitnesses. Note I said eyewitnesses, not simply believers. There is a big difference. Muslims who blow themselves up for their beliefs are not the same as people who claimed to have been eyewitnesses to a ressurrection and went to their deaths without recanting and claiming they made it all up. For you to think that it was all made up, you must base that belief on no evidence. There is no evidence that the story was fabricated. I know, you will say, but the Romans never mentioned it in thier writings. Think about that argument in a present day context, would you say that if our Government doesn't write about something that is happening in Iran that it must never have happened? The Romans wrote about the death of Jesus but they did not write about his miracles. Does that logically mean they did not occur?
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  gumby

  Hi RWC,

  Nice thought but too bad they are .....off base! I take it you have not got into deeper study of the early Christians. You have the Christians as a group of loyal eyewitnesses to Jesus who were killed over to their belief in him.....is that right?.......wrong! I would recommend studying the subjects you mentioned that I put in bold type and see if what you learn.....lines up with what you now believe.....just a suggestion.There are reasons WHY it has stood the test of time, it is NOT consistent, outside refrences DO NOT prove it's "validity", there is NO PROOF of him outside the bible, and the reason he changed the Roman world isn't because of who he claimes to be.

  Please give some point of reference where you got your ideas from ....I will be glad to supply my source.

  Here are your statements again:.....The Bible itself must be the starting point to prove its veracity as God's word. What does it say about its origin, what is its history, has it stood the test of time and is it internally consistent. From there you can go to outside references to prove its validity. I would start with the story of Jesus and the historical accuracy of his existence. Unlike the bold statements that there is no proof of him outside of the Bible, that is incorrect. But beyond what was written about him outside of the Bible, look at how did his life changed the whole social structure of the world he lived in. In a matter of a very short time in historical terms, Jewish culture was changed because of his existence.
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  ashitaka

  Whenever I wonder about eternity and whether the bible is true or not, I just tend to disbelieve it. Just because I say I'm the king of Peanut Butter doesn't mean I really am the king of Peanut Butter. The Bible self-proclaims it's divine origins. That's not good enough for me.

  For me, if there is a God, on judgement day, he will see my good works, charity, and love for my family, and not care if I washed to my elbows. He wont care about dead rituals or whether I disbelieved an old book or not. If He is there judgeing, it will be by actions based on love, and not because I was afraid of judgement. True love supercedes rhetoric.

  That's why I'm apatheistic.

  Read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis, and you'll know what I mean.

  ash
• 

  breeze

  rebel....

  If he is trying to communicate why do it in such a format that brings so much doubt and wonder??

  If GOD is to communicate with humans why not clear and consise language and direct information.....I created the Earth and it will last for xxxx, and then humans will be taken care of for eternity???

  Instead of I and three and I am one and we will come to the Earth to redeem mankind and a female human will deliver the Christ and, yikes....get it??

  ?????????....more questions than answers....!!

  Too much not clear for the GOD that I believe in to have done it with an instrument like the Bible?
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  pr_capone

  I tried that argument with my x-gf (catholic). Her response was that if God were to come down and tell us what it is he wants to our faces that it would take away our free will. People would simply be compelled to bow down and follow him.

  My response to her was, isnt that what God wants? For people to worship him and thank him everyday for their excistence? Why make it more difficult that what it has to be?
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  rebel

  Breeze - I understand that you still believe in God without the Bible. I wish I could find that things were so simple. I do believe in God because I just can't see how this planet with all the life forms could have just happened. However, I am starting to question the Bible because it just doesn't make a lot of sense and there are too many contradictions. God seems to tell us to do one thing while he does the opposite??? I thought a good parent should teach by example. How is exterminating babies and children along with their parents setting a good example? Even if the parents are deserving of destruction, why destroy those that haven't done anything?

  Do you read any other material to give you a better understanding of God? I am curious because I really would like to believe in a loving creator, a resurrection hope and a happy ending for all humankind. It may sound too good to be true, but I would like to know if there is a possibility of a better life than this. Surely, if God loves us, he would have given us some sort of guide? I'd appreciate your thoughts on this as you seem to have a belief in God without the need for the Bible. I seem to need the Bible - or some sort of communication - because I need to believe in something concrete. I am at the stage where I don't know anything any more.

  xxR