by JT 42 Replies latest jw friends
You know the seeds are planted. Some people need to go back just to make sure. I firmly believe that once a person has tasted a bit of freedom of their mind they will find it next to impossible to go back and be content.
She will remember.
Just like an abused woman goes back to her husband after being out of it for a while eventually they realize they can't make it work and they are being held down again.
Stay open and be patient.
She will remember
Good work
captivating post JT,what a sad place the jw world is for intelligent women. such a waste. you did your best jt, we can't live peoples lives for them and i'm sure the lady learned some stuff.
I'd be interested to hear more about the differences in the way black congregations operate in comparison to white ones. i know these things often work on quite a subtle level but it's fascinating all the same.
happy 2003 unc.
i too gather that she is a very intelligent woman as well , she reminds me of a black single female Doctor in my old congo, she too was attractive and bright, her natural desire for companionship drove her like so many other female in the organization to SETTLE FOR ANYTHING CALLED A BRO.
for so many of them if they only knew the truth about the TRUTH they would have been able to develope heathy relationships with some one of the opposite sex, but instead by not knowing about the MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN, they allowed wt to dictate ever facet of thier lives how sad
she at least has taken the right step by MERELY JUST CONSIDERING and for a jw that is a milestone in and of itself, only time will tell- I only wish she could have met my Wife "Lady "C"
cause my wife is a real "SISTA"
AS for how white and black congo operate, the all are much the same , but one of the things i have always noticed even while in wt was the way that so many black bro would just do what they are told, it is often called the slave mentatility- YES BOSS ANYTHING YOU SAY
I have always been impressed by the way white bro would challenge and question stuff even if it meant getting dogged, by the CO or DO for making them look foolish-
many meetings white bro would ask WHERE IS THE REF ON THAT, ,etc
where blacks would often time, say well if the co says it it's good enough for me- i used to get dogged for being too mouthy- well being a Society Man i knew that if you say something then you better be able to back it up IN PRINT- I SAW too many co come and go and then find out it was just their personal view so i would always phrase it--
In case one of the friends ask where is the ref on that point you mentioned and they had 2 choices,
1 tell you the wt page and paragraph
2 conscede it was just their understanding on the matter
##########
for many white bro they are able to fit back into mainstream society better if they leave wt, while blacks have a harder time
case in point in the little town i am in if a white bro left the org he could join the country club, make contacts, and est biz relationships in town with the power brokers
if a black bro left HE CAN'T EVEN JOIN THE COUTRY CLUB
so in my opinion it is like blacks feel they have more to lose-
the positions that the wt gives a black man is unheard of in terms of power over folks, i know lots of white bro who ran their own corp, they were bankers, investment guys, so they were used to being in decision making position and then here you have a black man who down at the Plant is a nobody, not because he can't do the work but he believes to REACHOUT ON THE JOB IS WRONG ESP if it means moving into management will cause him to miss meeting, so here he is going from Leroy the mailroom guy to the hall and now a SPOKESMAN FOR GOD-
and second and most important in my exp esp in congo where there are some racial tensions- to be a black man like a CO over some good ole white boys is LOVED TO DEATH - I RECALL talking to so many black folks who were just so proud when the new CO was a "BROTHA"
as one elder told me WE ARE GOING TO SEE SOME CHANGES ROUND HERE ON THE CONVENTIONS and sure enough more black bro got parts-
it is no simple answer or explanation, but is it fasicanating to observe
the positions that the wt gives a black man is unheard of in terms of power over folks, i know lots of white bro who ran their own corp, they were bankers, investment guys, so they were used to being in decision making position and then here you have a black man who down at the Plant is a nobody, not because he can't do the work but he believes to REACHOUT ON THE JOB IS WRONG ESP if it means moving into management will cause him to miss meeting, so here he is going from Leroy the mailroom guy to the hall and now a SPOKESMAN FOR GOD
Great point, although I think that can apply to people with little means as well. I knew a lot of brothers, both white and black, who were poor and acted this way (I grew up of little means myself). it meant much less to the elders who had a lot to begin with, on either side of the coin.
ash
JT you know you did your best. I agree with whomever said the seeds have been planted. Perhaps it will take some time for them to germinate but know what you did what you had to. :)
Timing is so critical. As some of you know, my two jw daughter's have reestablished contact with me. In fact my oldest and her husband are coming for a visit next month. Yippeeeeeee.
My youngest (23) has cut off comunications again. Probably my fault, for forwarding a copy of a post relating to a personal experience of a young sister, growing up with a strict jw mother. This particular post really had so many similarities to my daughter's experiences, that I just assumed she would see why I wanted her to read it. Well never assume!
Iam hoping that she will understand my motivation, and open the door to communication again. I took a calculated risk, and it backfired. I can only hope that what this young girl expressed, will stay with may daughter, and when the time or circumstance is right, she will remember.
God damn, this hideous religion is so evil. The victims do not even realize how narrow, how closed minded, they have become. When one cannot even read an experience about a total strangers life, without attributing some sort of 'apostate' conspiracy to it, is it any wonder how few get free from the watchtower grip?
Like you said Jt it just is So Sad!
Danny
It's groups like this that have me concerned about humanity's future.
That they still exist is a testament to the fact that our species is overrated. No matter how advanced parts of our society get, there will always be some to whom the comfort of a lie will appeal so much they ignore logic, reason, their own observations.
There are many on this board suffering the same thing. It really is infuriating. You look at them, they are obviously just as human as you and me, yet they refuse to use their own mind because it's easier not to.
That we, even as a species, always - ALWAYS - take the easy road...it doesn't bode well, I fear.
*sigh*
I'm too young to be a cynic....
I don't see how an open-minded, reasonable person could refute what you said. Hopefully she will do as you suggested and at a later date, realize the foolishness of what she has been taught and leave the WT. I only wish 7 years ago I was able to print your e-mail....
One of the first things I wanted to know was how is that possible and after reading a much as I could on High Control groups and how they worked--- I then realized that facts, proof, and evidence have very little to with getting some folks out, for many it requires something on their part for many it is an exp of hitting the wt wall and then starting to reexamining things
James Thomas
A farmer plants the seeds. He doesn't make them grow
You got a point
Hello, dearest JT... and others (hey, DB and Teej!)... may you all have peace!
As an "intelligent black woman"... and "sista'"... who also formerly followed the WTBTS, may I interject another perspective on this that perhaps may have been overlooked? Thank you!
Some time ago, I was accused of trying to get folks to follow me based on things I had posted on H20 and New Light 2, and I was permitted to respond that as a black (African American woman), IF that was what I WANTED to do, I would have NO problem... and pointed out just how easy it is among our people to start a church (all one needs is an empty building... of any size... usually on a busy street). Unc and DBear might remember that discussion.
I was also permitted to point out in that discussion the REASON for such ease: African Americans tend, generally, to be a much more "faith-based" culture. One example is the blacks in Anne Rice's "Interview With A Vampire" (if you've read it). There, although the White people had no clue that something was amiss, the blacks most certainly knew that the main characters, vampires Louis and LeStat, weren't your "usual" white folk, but had something "wrong"... mainly with their "spirits". Some tend to call us "superstitious" (though, I have to say that the WTBTS is THE most superstitious group of folks I've ever come across!)... but I don't think superstition and spirituality are the same thing, not at all. I am not superstitious in the least bit; however, I have no doubt that we all have spirits... which spirits can be good or bad... and that other spirit beings exist. But blacks cats and spilled salt and christmas and hallowe'en and witches, wizards, dragons... smurfs... don't mean a thing to me, negatively speaking.
But, black people do tend to have a bit more... ummmm... "belief" in the unseen, the spirit world... something they did NOT receive from the white man, but from ancestral/oral teachings. And yes, of course, dear JT... there are exceptions to the rule. Aren't there always?
So, what's my point? Simply this: you can try to take the "spiritual" person out of the false organization, but you CAN'T take the "spiritual NEED" out of the person. This woman, the subject of this thread... NEEDS spiritual contact. And for HER... right now... the "Society" provides that contact! (Well, it doesn't, but she THINKS it does!) Witness her statements that she KNEW they made mistakes, were imperfect, yada, yada, yada... but... basically she asked you... what is the alternative? And you offered her none. So... she has no place TO go... but back! Had you given her a alternative SHE could have lived with, the story might have ended differently.
Now, I find it quite interesting, dear JT, that you used the scenario of freed black slaves... who were afraid to leave the plantation. But I would like to remind you that those who had heard of "the NORTH"... and could VISUALIZE it... so that they could REALIZE it... went for it! Yes? Even if it meant their life... they took the chance. Why? Because someone had made the north "real" to them... someone who had either been there and came back to tell of it... or someone who had heard/read about it and was considered a dependable and reliable source (primarily, someone who could read and crack the "code" - of white newspapers, abolition bulletins, the Bible, etc.). Otherwise, though, for some time... it was only a "pipe dream". And it was most of them who failed to leave, even when freed.
The problem is that most folks (and yes, in this matter I am speaking of ex-JWs and potential ex-JWs) think that there are only the following three options when you leave the Borg:
1. Forget God; if He ain't there (in the Borg and, of course, He ain't), He doesn't exist. Best to rely on yourself.
2. God is not there (in the Borg), but He can be found in some other religion, so just keep looking until you find the "right" one.
3. Go back.
But there is a FOURTH option, and I have the hardest time trying to understand why folks do not consider it, nor offer it to others for consideration: Christ, the One recorded to have said, "Come... to ME!" and of whom Peter is recorded to have said, "Whom shall we go away TO?".
John 14:6; John 7:37, 38; Matthew 11:28
I think the main reason such a thing is SO hard is that... well, as one "sister" said to me shortly after I was asked to leave, "You can't worship what you can't see!" Sigh! Obviously, she missed the whole point of Christ's teachings, yes?
Anyway, you tried to lead this woman out of "Babylon", dear JT, out of Jerusalem, but SHE saw that you were only going to lead her outside the "gate". And for her, it ain't SAFE out there! SHE knows that the only "place" safe for HER... is the mountains! And she's right! It might be safe for some others just outside the gate, but for someone like her... it can't be. Why? Because true, she might want to give up the Organization, but she most CERTAINLY doesn't want to give up GOD. And that, in essence, is what you were leading her to do, whether you meant to... or not.
Dear ones... not everyone wishes to be "void" of spirituality. And why should they be? Is spirituality such a "bad" thing that it should be avoided at all costs? Or is it RELIGION that should be avoided, completely? If you read the teachings of Christ, in what was anything he said or taught or did "bad" or wrong? None. What is bad or wrong, however, is how some have incorporated the teachings of this one and the sayings of that one and, in essence, the traditions and doctrines of MEN... and attributed it to God and Christ! But is it they who are false, and not God and Christ ("Let God be found TRUE, though EVERY man a liar!)
So, I ask you, what would be WORSE: to have led her to Christ, the TRUE Son of God and not the "image" that man has set up, the Christ who teaches mercy and forgiveness and love and tolerance and acceptance and charity and peace and faith, who judges not, condemns not and harbors no illwill accept against those who mislead ones who want to come to him... OR... let her dangle, outside, uncertain, so that after a time she has no choice BUT to return to the "vomit"... and to rolling in the mire? I ask you, which is WORSE?
Dear ones, many of you have taken it upon yourselves to "lead" ones away from the Borg. And that is quite commendable. I do not find fault with you in that, except that some ARE "sheep"... no matter what you may think of that, no matter WHAT your opinion of it is. A leopard CANNOT change his spots. And if it is a "sheep", then you must RECOGNIZE that... and recognize that a SHEEP... MUST be led by a "shepherd". And thus, if you take it upon yourselves to lead a SHEEP, you are OBLIGATED to direct them to the right shepherd. And there is ONLY ONE... the "Fine Shepherd." Otherwise, you may be guilty also of misleading them, of bringing them out... only to let them starve... and die... in the "wilderness"... of "abandoning them... to the wolf."
John 10:7-15
For those of you who take it upon yourselves to take on this responsibility, please know and understand that this is NOT about you, but about the one you are attempting to "lead"... "assist"... "help". If you can't see THEM... who they TRULY are and what THEY need... as opposed to what YOU see/saw and what YOU needed... then you might be better off just leaving them where they are... and leaving the responsibility for their lives... where it currently is.
If you don't want anyone to "judge" your LACK of spiritual need... then I implore you to refrain from judging their need. Please.
Again, I bid you peace.
YOUR servant... and a slave of Christ,
SJ
Edited by - AGuest on 3 January 2003 16:33:46
My youngest (23) has cut off comunications again. Probably my fault, for forwarding a copy of a post relating to a personal experience of a young sister, growing up with a strict jw mother. This particular post really had so many similarities to my daughter's experiences, that I just assumed she would see why I wanted her to read it. -- DannyBear
Sounds like me. In talking to both my sister and that old friend, I think I pushed too hard. Gave them too much information too fast. Saying anything at all is usually risky. A person has to really be ready for "the truth," like we used to say. Otherwise, I guess it's best to say nothing at all.
Hello Shell,
I got what you are saying. Have to agree that man does have an almost palpable need for the spiritual side.
Where we differ is in the 'direction' of 'leading'. As you and I have discussed before, it is the leading and directing, that has gotten mankind so screwed up. We can debate, argue, till the 'sun don't rise' as to specifics like Jesus, Allah, Jehovah, Jah-Meshica, Buddah, Zen, whatever, as the destination or goal. Does the acceptance of any of these 'spiritual' entities really make a difference?
To you the acceptance of Jesus and his teaching's, satisfies the need. To me the need is satisfied by an acceptance of a belief in a 'creator'....no specific name or atribute need be applied, touted, or proclaimed. Just a simple belief, right or wrong. This allows me to enjoy the same sense of 'sprituality' as any of the above mentioned follower's or subscribers.
So for JT not to direct her or lead her, is really a suberb act of humility on his part. Because once another fellow human asserts or proclaims his/her sprituality is 'the way'. That person or organization becomes just another 'faithful and discreet'......follow me, substitute for a journey that should be left to each individual to decide for themselves.
I guess that is why exclaiming the virtue of Jesus, or any other religious spiritual view, is so distasteful to the majority of us cult survivor's. Jumping from one frying pan into another, is not really the answer.
So not leading or pointing victims who are suffering under cult mind control, in any direction, accept for revealation of the facts, as to lies, dishonesty, false claims, is to say the least, not only kind.....but the pureist form of neighborly love.
Danny
edited to reveal this new word I just coined "revealation"........yes brother's and sister's Danny is "revealationing' amen and amen.
Edited by - DannyBear on 3 January 2003 17:13:10
