by JT 42 Replies latest jw friends
Hello TJ,
Longtime no talk.
I must admit I now regret having sent that post/responses. My oldest daughter encourages me to try and establish a common ground again. When I do, I will never make that mistake again. I would rather have an open door, than have no opportunity to have a relationship with her at all.
Getting a loved one free from 'the cult' is not worth, losing them forever.
I will proceed with severe caution in the future.
Regards to you teej,
Danny
I understand your position, DBearMan... the greatest of love and peace to you!... but I have to disagree with you...
once another fellow human asserts or proclaims his/her sprituality is 'the way'
is exactly the point: religion proclaims that THEIR "way" is "THE way". And "christianity" does it by claiming that their "way"... is God's way... when the very writings they use to base their claims say that there is only ONE "Way"... and that ALL others who come in place of that One are thieves and plunderers. Thus, I have no "way", dear Danny. None at all. As I have said, I am only a servant, sharing a message... not to follow ME, but another. But there are others (religion) who say, "Come, follow US... WE... are him!"
If someone came to you... or anyone else here... proclaiming that they or their spirituality is "the way"... I would tell you to get away from them: they are liars. IF, however, they came only to say that there is One who IS "the Way"... I would tell you to at LEAST... listen. For there is only One whose words, "Come, be my follower" are true. All others are either servants of that One... or imposters. How do you know the difference? The servants will tell you to listen, NOT to them... but to him. And... they will tell you how. They will NOT tell you, "Listen to ME, for in listening to me, you are listening to him." Even when they are given something to speak, they will STILL tell you, "Don't take my word for it; ask him yourself." For there truly only is ONE "faithful... and discreet" slave... the "faithful witness".
And I also have to agree with you, to some degree:
not leading or pointing victims who are suffering under cult mind control, in any direction, accept for revealation of the facts, as to lies, dishonesty, false claims, is to say the least, not only kind.....but the pureist form of neighborly love.
It is VERY kind. But recognizing another's NEED... another's HUNGER... and filling that need... is the purist form of neighborly love. One just needs to make certain that their neither serving "polluted" and even "poisoned" food... or "air" sandwiches. For both with kill, eventually, the latter via starvation.
Again, my love and peace to you and your household, dear Danny...
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
... for JT not to direct her or lead her, is really a suberb act of humility on his part. Because once another fellow human asserts or proclaims his/her sprituality is 'the way'. That person or organization becomes just another 'faithful and discreet'......follow me, substitute for a journey that should be left to each individual to decide for themselves.I guess that is why exclaiming the virtue of Jesus, or any other religious spiritual view, is so distasteful to the majority of us cult survivor's. Jumping from one frying pan into another, is not really the answer. -- DannyBear
Reminds me of a movie scene.
I can't be sure, but I think the movie was Boyz N the Hood. A high school teacher / advisor was talking to two "urban youths." He said something along the lines of, "if I have to cross a river, all I need is a boat. Once I get across the river, I don't need the boat no more." Something like that.
He said that because one of the boys was touting the superior, must-have virtues of the South Central's Black Muslims. Without trying to squelch the boy's spirituality, the teacher/advisor tried to help the youngster see that religion is only a vessel to get us from here to the next step in our life. Religion has its purpose -- a purpose that, for some of us, eventually comes to an end.
SJ,
Well Shell at least when you disagree, you still shower enough love and dear one's around to make it bearable.
I suppose if individual's espousing Jesus way, would leave out all the scriptural admonitions it would be less offensive to me, but it alway's seems that the discussion slides back to the bible. Once one has decided the bible is not a serious reference of God's own words, it is mute.
To date I have not witnessed one 'follower/seeker' whatever you want to designate them as, who does not revert to this 'circlular' form of argumentation.
Let me ask you a question. Could you simply tell other's about your Jah-Meshca/Saviour without resorting to the bible as a basis for belief? I don't think you can. In fact it would be impossible for you to do so.
Getting around this BIG hurdel, is what most 'believer's' seem to just ignore. Almost to say, that when someone says they don't believe the bible is the word of God, they, the non-believer, is lieing. Or at the very least the believer continues to quote more scripture, as if to say, by sheer weight of volume, that HERE READ THIS and then you will believe. Well humpty dumpty.........what silly logic is that?
Not trying to be a smart ass Shell, it all just makes no sense to me. Although I think you have the right to hold and treasure your beliefs, I must draw the line at making any inference, that the said belief is in fact 'the way'.
You take care as well Shell, you know I love ya.
Danny
Tj said,
*** Religion has its purpose -- a purpose that, for some of us, eventually comes to an end.***
Could this be it? I believe you are right on Tj.
My lady attended Baptist youth school in her early teens, she decided that it was not for her, but she remember's bible stories, and can converse with anyone about christianity. She made a choice after giving it due consideration. Perhaps that is all any of us need, the choice.
It is this insipid need or dogma of most religions, that keeps one chained to a particular 'life style' or 'way' that seem to mire mankind in all sorts of intolerant bigotry.
I liked this simple thought.........'eventually comes to an end'
Danny
Well, I'm one Black Woman who doesn't intend on goin' back...
One lost, one gained. Hopefully she'll see the light.
Edited by - Nickey on 3 January 2003 18:24:56
So, what do you think the reason was for this woman to not accept your point of view? Was it timing, delivery or fear? Would you try a different approach in the future?
It is a seductive dream, a tranquil dream - the "Sky Daddy" loves YOU, if you love HIM, and the Sky Daddy will watch over you, and take care of you, giving you "meat in due season," if you stick to the organization that HIS faithful slaves have put together. You will ride in a spiritual Ark through the turbulent waters of the end of "this wicked system of things" and - just like in the WTS illustrations - walk straight into paradise, where you will re-united with all your dead loved ones because Sky Daddy will resurrect them. You will live forever in a perfect, unfailing body free of pain or illnessYes wt sells one of the finest dreams I can think of and while this dear sister sees all kinds of cracks in the dike she like myself and many others we just wanted to hold on to that dream that EVERYTHING WILL BE OK ALL I HAVE TO DO IS SELL MORE MAGS AND BOOKS FOR THE WT- HOW SAD
It's a very poignant moment when you realize that the person you're just about to pull from the water loses their grip and they slip back in, taken by the raging current downstream, around the bend, and finally out of your sight -- maybe for the last time. It makes me sad all over again, even now, to think of it.
TJ
I CAUGHT this little point you stated BELOW and as you can see it is exactly a carbon copy of the same statement that was made to me when I too asked the sister to stop and think
For you stated:
:
."Finally he told me that he didn't see any need to continue the conversation and that, until I decided to "come back to Jehovah," there wasn't any need for us to talk together ever again
notice how I was told almost the same thing :
However, we are on two entirely separate paths and the is no further need for us to continue this dialog.
It is so sad to literally see ABOVE HOW THEY SHUT DOWN
Wow. I feel so sad for her. She's so trapped.
Ash
Ash you could not have put it better and Chester you are on the money
She is reading the board by the way
Lady Lee says
You know the seeds are planted. Some people need to go back just to make sure. I firmly believe that once a person has tasted a bit of freedom of their mind they will find it next to impossible to go back and be content.
She will remember.
Just like an abused woman goes back to her husband after being out of it for a while eventually they realize they can't make it work and they are being held down again.
Stay open and be patient.
Your post above is so true, for so many once they are exposed to the real deal as they sit in all those meeting and esp in her case being DF we all know she will be treated like dirt and it is often at that moment they realize there is nothing that they have done that is so bad that they need to be treated like dirt and for many it puts them on the road of RE-EXAMINING ISSUE
I WILL keep my phone line open for her
I agree 110%Ash says
Great point, although I think that can apply to people with little means as well. I knew a lot of brothers, both white and black, who were poor and acted this way (I grew up of little means myself). it meant much less to the elders who had a lot to begin with, on either side of the coin.
Danny says: Probably my fault, for forwarding a copy of a post relating to a personal experience of a young sister, growing up with a strict jw mother. This particular post really had so many similarities to my daughter's experiences, that I just assumed she would see why I wanted her to read it. Well never assume!DANNY Your point ABOVE is well taken, in fact after I posted her email she wrote back and DOGGED ME, Lady C told me that perhaps it was not a good idea to post her emails AND SIDED WITH HER :), and looking back perhaps it was a bad idea to post her email, but like you my reason for doing so I felt at the time was it would perhaps help someone else sitting on the fence to see who close a person can come to freedom only to return to slavery Well she dogged me for posting her email and for that I apologize, as we all know that is no one way to help folks get out of wt and see the real deal, What works today with someone may not work the next day- I realize I should not have posted our email conversation, but I didnt do it to hurt her in anyway THE WT HAS DONE ENOUGH OF THAT TO HER
MINIMUS
So, what do you think the reason was for this woman to not accept your point of view? Was it timing, delivery or fear? Would you try a different approach in the future?
I THINK it was a combination of all,-
Fear of the unknown, information OVER LOAD, DENIAL ,
it sorta like the guy in the Peanuts Charlie Brown who had the Towel that he would not let go and when you consider her indoctrination it is very understandable-
she is dfed for reasons that perhaps are not related to Doctrines, so she may have a feeling of perhaps "well I did do something wrong and i am paying for my error" - which is a very common view held by folks who get Dfed perhaps over some type of "moral issue
so they often times feel due to the indoctrination that THEY DESERVE TO BE TREATED LIKE DIRT
as i pointed out to her I didn't leave due to being mistreated, many folks on this board and others often time relate how BADLY THEY WERE TREATED by fellow jw, elder, co etc- and as a result i told her it often times cause such ones to take a step back and be willing to reexamine things,
but for me and perhaps others it was not MISTREATMENT i was treated well, i was loved i was part of the "IN CROWD" for me i often times tried to include others who felt they were being shafted and cut short to join in with me as part of the IN CROWD, but i always got dogged for doing that-
my main issue of concern was not personlities but DOGMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WAS A DYED IN THE WOOL SOCIETY MAN i was taught that it must BE IN PRINT, i didn't give my opinion on matters my ref was always THE BOUND VOLS
so for me it was when i could no longer justify the changing dogmas starting with the GENERATION DOGMA and from there it was all down hill-
as has been pointed out so well in the many post THE SEED HAS BEEN PLANTED
one of the most interesting things about EXAMINING THE ORG, once you open PANDORA BOX YOU CAN'T PUT IT BACK
so as she sits in the meetings and hears all the things THAT MANY WILL COMMENT OR SAY
SHE WILL say herself like many of us: " THAT AIN'T TRUE CAUSE I LOOKED THAT UP MYSELF"
Once you are given a TASTE OF FREE THINKING it is hard to turn around and resubmit to control
that is why i told her to SAVE OUT LAST EMAIL FOR trust me she will look back on that email and say:
"Damn I could have gotten out earlier and moved on with my life"
James, I too was taught that if it wasn't in print, then don't bother making an issue of it. But obviously that "print" thing meant nothing. As you and Amazing noted before, the "oral" teachings have taken on more significance, and can't be reliably traced.
