Did Polonius kill his wife? A problem with apolegetics

by bohm 27 Replies latest jw friends

  • bohm
    bohm

    A basic problem with christian apologetics when applied to the bible is that it relies on the tacit assumption you can draw reliable conclusions on the material. 

    An example is the resurrection story of Jesus. The most common form of apologetics start out by certain claims (the tomb was found empty, the disciples had post-crusifiction experiences of Jesus that transformed their lives, etc.), and then point out these claims are best explained by Jesus rising from the dead. There are several difficulties with the assumptions in this argument, however I would claim the most fundamental is the attempt to draw certain conclusions on the material for or against the resurrection story. I think this tendency stem from four sources: (i) Saying "we cant know" sell inherently less books than a firm conclusion (ii) psychological need for closure; we want to know the truth and so desire certainty (iii) it seem unfair to treat historical events with the same rigor we demand today since the evidence we demand today would most certainly have been lost (iv) discussing the resurrection of a historical person is so removed from our common-sense experience we easily miss how flimsy the evidence is. 

    I think this is best illustrated by posing a hypothetical parallel event to the resurrection story which is inherently more plausible and better attested, however it has the big disadvantage of being posed in a situation where we are familiar with evaluating the evidence. The event is the following: Did Polonius, a hypothetical roman senator in the first century, kill his wife? The evidence is in the form of historical documents which allege that Polonius killed his wife, buried her on his property and bribed the slaves and staff into silence and we can suppose the documents are of the same sort as the gospels and letters of the bible. We know how to examine evidence of this form since it is done in trials every day, this is how I imagine this might go over.

    Firstly, it is very doubtful this could go to trial because without a body, murder scene, missing persons report etc. it is doubtful if the wife could be declared dead. Suppose we get around this and it goes to court, this is what the prosecutor do not have: 

    • A witness that can be sworn in and deliver testimony
    • A witness that can be interviewed pre-trail
    • A murder weapon
    • A murder scene
    • A body
    • Any sort of forensic evidence

    What the prosecutor does have is a number of documents. These documents alledge the murder took place, however they are at best hearsay: A parallel case to the documents is a person who did not hear a statement uttered himself, but heard the statement from someone else and is now reporting it. This is hearsay since the person who made the statement cannot be sworn in. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay) However it gets much worse, since we do not have any reliable way to establish the documents themselves are reliable, who made them, who transcribed them, when they were written etc. the prosecutor cannot even convince the court he has hearsay evidence but argue that he might have hearsay evidence, or double hearsay evidence, or triple hearsay evidence etc. 

    Lets suppose we have evidence available of the sort we will never have for the bible: We have a written confession of Polonius himself, or rather since this account would no survive in it's original form, copies of such a confession. Even this would not be enough for a conviction, since there would be no forensic tools available to prove the written confession was actually from Polonius. In a modern setting this would be something akin to a machine typed A4-page with the supposed confession of a murder but with no way to forensic or geographical tie it to the accused asides the statement contained on the page. Would this even be admitted?

    The hypothetical murder would never be provable to the degree needed to secure a verdict today, not because the judge has a sudden fit of naturalism (as is the de-facto response to skepticism), but because the evidence is weak. 

    Naturally we are not discussing a rather every-day event like a husband murdering his wife, or an even rarer event like a complicated murder plot, but a suspension of the natural laws which inherently requires much stronger evidence than the simple murder plot.

     

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    I've had this discussion a number of times with fundamentalist.  Very well put together.  Thanks for the epistimic work.

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    Why would anyone care to dissect the events surrounding Jesus' resurrection in order to know the truth about it?


    A person either believes it took place or they don't.


    In my opinion (yeah, I have one of those too. I'm sitting on it) each person has the privilege of believing it or not and no one will be able to change their minds no matter what 'evidence' or suppositions they provide.

    I can't understand why anyone would want to or even attempt to try to change a person's believe about Jesus' resurrection because I believe it is a very private matter between the person and the creator, if there really is one.



  • sir82
    sir82

    Why would anyone care to dissect the events surrounding Jesus' resurrection in order to know the truth about it?

    A person either believes it took place or they don't.

    What an odd statement.

    Would you apply that same standard, "even you believe it happened or you don't", to any other important circumstance? A criminal investigation, a spouse's claim of infidelity, a legal document, anything?



  • Isle of Lewis
    Isle of Lewis
    Why would anyone care to dissect the events surrounding Jesus' resurrection in order to know the truth about it?

    I agree with Honesty. 

    Whats the point of examining everyone's myths. Its a waste a time. Pretending to know what you don't know is not a virtue, knowledge, or intelligence. Just arrogance, narcissism, and delusions.

    People like theology because its easy.


  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy
    There are so many problems with Jesus story I can no longer take it seriously.  The whole trial being held during a holy week, charging him because he said he was the Messiah many before and after made this claim and were not charged. Then all the discrepancies with his resurrection, how many people found the tomb empty and where the apostles were to go to see him Jerusalem or Galilee take your pick because both were written.  I mean common if god cant get the scribes to get the story right what kinda god is he anyway. 
  • Honesty
    Honesty


    Why would anyone care to dissect the events surrounding Jesus' resurrection in order to know the truth about it?


    A person either believes it took place or they don't.


    sir82 sez:
    What an odd statement.
    Would you apply that same standard, "even you believe it happened or you don't", to any other important circumstance? A criminal investigation, a spouse's claim of infidelity, a legal document, anything?


    I am not into speculating, arguing or debating about an event that has been submerged in controversy for almost 2,000 years for several reasons.

    1. No one alive today was there to either confirm or debunk the event.

    2. What is the point in speculating, arguing or debating the event when most people have already made up their minds if it took place or not.

    3. I have a lot better things to do with my time than to try to enforce my personal opinions and beliefs regarding the subject on people who should be intelligent enough to determine for themselves that the event took place or it didn't.


    Have a nice day.


    P.S.

    FYI, I won a very important civil court case on December 4 during which the defendant, who lives in another state vehemently denied to the court any knowledge of. The defendant was convicted on 4 of 5 counts and the only reason he wasn't convicted on the 5th count is because the plaintiff agreed with the defendant's testimony regarding that alleged violation of civil law. 

    On a side note, if I had remained in the Jehovah's Witness cult I would have never been able to receive an education which would have afforded the lifestyle and financial benefits I enjoy since leaving it unless my name was Carol Wah or Phil Brumley.




  • Max Divergent
    Max Divergent
    Why would anyone care to dissect the events surrounding Jesus' resurrection in order to know the truth about it?

    I think you miss the point. The issue is whether the bible is of any value in determining what happened in the past and thus whether the bible is of any use in establishing beliefs for the present. And if it's not, then the foundation of the Western religions is just a historic curiosity of no more value than this stuff about some guy called Polonius. It's a pretty fundamental question in a Judeo-Christian context. 

    I can't understand why anyone would want to or even attempt to try to change a person's believe about Jesus' resurrection because I believe it is a very private matter between the person and the creator, if there really is one.

    Other people's fervent belief in things for which there is no evidence has driven world politics and impacted individual's lives for good and ill for millennia. Challenging the weak foundations of others' beliefs is essential for human progress: otherwise we'd still be in the Dark Ages. Or fighting against the establishment of a Caliphate and terrorism (oh, that's right, we are...). 

    In my opinion (yeah, I have one of those too. I'm sitting on it) each person has the privilege of believing it or not and no one will be able to change their minds no matter what 'evidence' or suppositions they provide.

    Rubbish. History proves this fatalistic passivity wrong, and hazardous.  

    Good post bohm.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Thanks for all the replies, I hope to read them more fully later when I get off from work.

    Honesty: Why would anyone care to dissect the events surrounding Jesus' resurrection in order to know the truth about it?

    I think my answer would be that I feel the truth of these claims are important, and I think many Christians would agree -- if Jesus rose from the dead, if the bible is true or not, etc. is to them and I a matter of very great importance. I can accept (though I don't really understand) that you feel this is of no great importance, though I do wonder where you draw the lines of when it is important to know the truth or not: Christianity, all religious claims or all truth-claims in general. Is it for instance important to you that your spouse is faithful or not? If so, why is the truth of that more important than a religious claim, like if you are going to hell, heaven or no where at all? It would seem the later is a bigger deal all things considered.

    I can't understand why anyone would want to or even attempt to try to change a person's believe about Jesus' resurrection because I believe it is a very private matter between the person and the creator, if there really is one.

    I can answer for myself: If Jesus really rose from the dead, I would very much hope someone would take the time and effort to change my mind so I was in the right. 

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    I have a few questions to ask the posters on this thread who don't agree with or understand my views regarding Jesus. 


    1. Do any of the posters on this thread believe Jesus is real and is not frozen in history, distant from our circumstances and remote from our life experiences?

    If you don't believe Jesus is real and is not frozen in history, distant from our circumstances and remote from our life experiences do you think that I, or any other person can convince you otherwise?


    2. Do any of the posters on this thread believe Jesus is present, active, involved and engaged in our time and place and is still speaking and acting to make Himself known and to change the world?

    If you don't believe Jesus is  present, active, involved and engaged in our time and place and is still speaking and acting to make Himself known and to change the world do you think that I, or any other person can convince you otherwise?

     

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