For plmkrzy

by AlanF 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi plmkrzy,

    While talking to a friend tonight, he reminded me of a thread nearly two months old: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=39119&site=3&page=3 . At the end you posted:

    : I have a question to Alan if this doesn't sound to medioker.

    : Not to sure if I will ask this clearly enough but, is there any particular reason why some interpret "prophetic" scripture as "literal"?

    And a few days later:

    : I forgot all about this thread already. Alan never responded...guess my question was too stupid for him? oh well

    Actually I ended up in California on business for a week immediately after my last post on that thread, and then have been working extremely long hours until just before Christmas. So I did forget about the thread.

    As for your question, I don't understand what you're getting at. Perhaps you could explain in more detail.

    AlanF

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    LOL,

    Actually I will have to go back through some old threads myself to find out what I was talking about.

    I do remember though that is was directly related to other posts I had been reading at that time, and my question was based on how different interpretations are regarding the same scriptures, resulting in arguments between posters who disagree on what scriptures are to be taken "literal" and what scriptures are to be taken as "In a spiritual" sense. glad I didn't have to actually SAY that.

    Some will argue that entire books are spiritual (Revelations example) and others have argued that the entire Christian Greek Scriptures are "Spiritual" and the "Hebrew" Scriptures are "Literal".

    The argument never seems to end on where one meaning begins and another ends.

    Not to mention actually lining the books up in proper order in the first place.

    I just thought since you have an unusual way of viewing "The Bible" as a whole (different then say, a "thumper") You might be able to offer a reasonable explanation for why so many various faiths can't seem to find common ground for at least THAT much.

    Better late then never, Thanks for getting back on that. I had completely forgotton.

    Plum

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi plmkrzy,

    : I just thought since you have an unusual way of viewing "The Bible" as a whole (different then say, a "thumper") You might be able to offer a reasonable explanation for why so many various faiths can't seem to find common ground for at least THAT much.

    Geez, that's a hard question and I certainly don't know the answer. I can only offer my opinions, which are worth no more than those of anyone else on a topic this fuzzy.

    I view the Bible as a great piece of Hebrew literature that is so well written in a story-telling and poetic sense that it managed to stand the test of time long enough to become an integral part of world culture. An interesting read is Robert Alter's The Art of Biblical Narrative, which explains to English readers just what makes for great story telling in Hebrew. But the stories, while outstanding as stories, remain just stories.

    : Not to mention actually lining the books up in proper order in the first place.

    There has been much disputing through the centuries over that. As I understand it, by roughly the end of the 1st century A.D. the Hebrew canon was essentially established, except that there were still disputes over whether the so-called Apocryphal writings should be included. Eventually the Catholic Church decided that they should, but after the Reformation, Protestants decided that they shouldn't. The history of the New Testament books has been a good deal more spotty. It was the Catholic Church again that decided which writings should be considered inspired and which shouldn't.

    The problem is simple in principle: How can any human decide which writings are inspired and which are not, unless they are inspired themselves? And who would dare to claim to be inspired? And so the disputing continues.

    : Some will argue that entire books are spiritual (Revelations example) and others have argued that the entire Christian Greek Scriptures are "Spiritual" and the "Hebrew" Scriptures are "Literal".

    : The argument never seems to end on where one meaning begins and another ends.

    I don't think anyone has an answer. Sure, morons like the JWs will claim to have one, but they tend to claim virtual inspiration -- which other things they do tend to disprove.

    One problem is simply defining the terms "literal", "spiritual" and "figurative". In everyday speech we use figurative language all the time: The sun rises and sets, etc. Sometimes this language is obviously figurative, sometimes its obviously really literal (we say the sun rises but we really mean that it only looks like it), and sometimes we can't decide. I don't know how to give an objective definition of "spiritual" that most everyone would agree with. With an ancient book written by people whose culture we don't fully understand, written in languages we can often only sometimes guess about, you can see the problem. And of course, there are all the interpreters who often interpret what they read based on their own desires rather on what a text says to a more objective intepreter.

    I know these are lousy answers, but that's all I can say.

    AlanF

  • simwitness
    simwitness
    The problem is simple in principle: How can any human decide which writings are inspired and which are not, unless they are inspired themselves? And who would dare to claim to be inspired? And so the disputing continues.

    That's a keeper.

    And of course, if the Catholic church, in the beginning was in fact inspired, who were the reformists to question it?

    And if the reformists were in fact inspired, why did they accept all but "a couple" of the books that the Catholics chose? And why were no "new" books added? (like the Gospel of Thomas, etc...).

    It's all about control. And fear is the tool that the religions use to assert that control.

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Plum, I think Alan owes you interest for waiting so long to answer, eh?

    Considering "literal vs. spiritual" as "literal vs. prophetic," and omitting arguments about inspiration, the Bible itself shows that very very little of the OT would have any implication beyond the literal ones relevant to the Messiah. For example, only 11 verses in Isaiah have any conjectural modern-day application http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=43611&site=3

    Considering "literal vs. spiritual" as "literal vs. typological", E. Earle Ellis makes the following observation in New Testament Interpretation (pp. 210-11)(bold added):

    More generally, covenant typology approaches the whole of Old Testament as prophecy. Not only persons and evenets but also its institutions were "a shadow of the good things to come." New Testament typology is thoroughly christological in its focus.

    An important category of Scripture that does not strictly fall into either one of these two categories is apocalyptic. And it's almost exclusively the apocalyptic literature that requires "symbolic" or "figurative" interpretation, fraught with the associated challenge of grasping the historical setting and determining the sociological purpose of the writer(s). Fortunately, this genre has a characteristic theme; The Interpreter's Bible (Vol. 12, p. 348):

    It will be seen that apocalypticism attempts to explain the agelong existence of evil, especially in the form of the afflictions and sufferings of the righteous, and at the same time proposes a dramatic solution of the problem...primarily apocalyptic righteousness consists in complete loyalty to God and to the cultic and ritualistic requirements of his religion. For example, in Daniel the test of righteousness is absolute conformity to the requirements of the Torah, especially to the dietary laws and the commandments to worship God alone...Similarly, in Revelation the criterion of righteous conduct is perfect loyalty and devotion to God and Christ, which is demonstrated by absolute refusal to worship the emperor or the state...

    What would otherwise be considered rather cryptic imagery, when viewed from this perspective, makes sense.

    Of course, it helps to take a couple Valium first. LOL

    Craig

    Edited by - onacruse on 9 January 2003 22:30:4

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Thanks Alan side-bar, if I thought your opinion had no value I wouldn't have ask in the first place. It is a fuzzy subject and I guess if it were an easy one then we could probably erase about 2 or 3 thousand years of mass murder, at least.

    Of course, it helps to take a couple Valium first. LOL

    Craig

    LOL swallows 2 Valium and declares self , virtually Inspired!

    I have decided to re-name the Holy Book and dub it "The Big Secrete"

    as in hidden meaning, not lozenge. I thin i spelled it correctly.

    plum

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    PLMKRZY,

    whoops, not shouting,,,,if you don't mind the butt-in, there is another perspective on understanding scripture. For Muslims, the Koran is the only legitimate key to understanding the OT and NT. Muhammed made many references to the "book" and clarified many misconceptions. For this both the Jews and Christians "clergy' we livid with jealousy and hatred. Since that time and the decline of Islam into contending divisions like Christianity, the Baha'i text address how to understand Biblical and Koranic scripture. If you are interested in seeing Baha'i hermuetics I'd be happy to send a sample or you can go on line at www.bahai.org and look for Kitab'I'gan. Let me know if you need any help.

    carm

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Thanks for the link carmel, I will check it out.

    I do have one book about the Koran however it isn't a favorable one. It is called "The True Koran"

    I still haven't read it through. I only began reading it then got caught up in other stuff.

    I have no problem keeping an open mind though and will check the site out.

    Plum

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Best watch out for the B'Hai, Plmkrzy. Their teachings appear very "sensible" to the uninitiated, just like those of the JWs do. But they acknowledge a number of miracle-working Messiah types, the latest of which worked miracles in the 1840s or so, and whose death involved at least as many miracles as did Jesus'.

    AlanF

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Craig,

    :

    More generally, covenant typology approaches the whole of Old Testament as prophecy. Not only persons and evenets but also its institutions were "a shadow of the good things to come." New Testament typology is thoroughly christological in its focus.

    That viewpoint arose with the Second Adventists, did it not? I believe Russell got all his "types" from them. I'm not aware of any mainstream religions who deal with types, classes and anti-types that aren't Adventist descendents. Do you?

    Farkel

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