When the Master came in 1919 for inspection and noticed that the Watchtower was the only group doing good, were these faithful slave members the ones the WT. refers to as the "evil slave"?
The Judge's Illegal takeover
by RR 43 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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Farkel
The Old Hippie,
: Constantly pointing to something that took place a century ago, why?
Um, to show that the WTS has been a consistent liar since the very beginning of their existence?
Of course, this begs the question of why people make entire life decisions on what allegedly happened twenty centuries ago in Jesus' day. Not to mention folks like the Watchtower society who have to go back hundreds of years BEFORE THAT to find something to justify what they do.
If you don't believe the WTS deserves scrutiny because of what they taught as truth 100 years ago, then it easy to dismiss what the Bible taught as truth (and isn't) several THOUSAND years ago.
Never forget that the Watchtower society makes extraordinary claims about who they are. Such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the facts show they don't have any such evidence. Not 100 years ago. Not today. Not anywhere between a 100 years ago and today.
Farkel
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DannyBear
RR,
If possible, do you have any comments or figures relating to the discussion under Artful's '1919 Bible Students'?
I would like to know what you thought about the estimates made by James Penton vs the wtbs on the number of active Bible Students 1914-1920's.
Thanks.
Danny
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RR
Hi Danny, I never saw Artful's thread, just looked for it and posted a little something, a bit repetitious, if you ask me. As to Pentons's thoughts, I'm not quite sure I remember what his figures were, can you enlighten me?
RR
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DannyBear
RR,
Thanks for your response. Here was my comment regarding James Pentons estimate:
Artful,
On page 42 of Penton's Apocalypse Delayed under the subtitle of The New Covenant Schism he states in part:
"Consequently, several hundreds out of a total perhaps of 10,000 Bible Students seceeded."
This was in 1909 and the circumstance surrounded a dispute regarding the interpretation of the ransom sacrifice and to whom it applied.
Apparently what makes it so hard to define actual number's, is the almost unstructured manner the congregations were adminstered before Rutherford started his dictatorship.
Danny
edited to add: In 1927 Rutherford addressed a convention in Ontario Canada with over 15,000 in attendance.
Also RR you mentioned that the 'Dawn's' were instrumental in getting WBBR going. Since my father was the radio station engineer at that time. He was involved from the very start, putting up the broadcast tower and building the facility.
I wonder about this, because both mom and dad may well have come to Bethel as 'Dawns' but I never heard a thing about it.
Thanks again.
Danny
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TheOldHippie
Rutherford closed the doors of heaven i 1935, but Russell had closed them in 1878, was it not? He stated that it was only those already in connection with the Bible Students by them, who had any heavenly hopes. I'll check up in Stafford, butthis is to the best of my recollection.
An interesting spin of the thought in my eyes, is the question about those were "fortunate" enough to die before the splintering years. Say you have 10,000 Bible Students (just imaginary numbers) in 1890, and then a good lot of them, as many were elderly, would die before 1918 and the problems arising then. They died "steadfast" and "in good standing with the Lord" - but what if they had lived till 1920 or so, would they have followed Rutherford, or would they have been discouraged because Russell died and left it all, or would they have followed those rebelling against Rutherford? A large portion of the then living Bible Students did. OK, we move on a bit further, you still have 6-7-8,000 remaining of the original Bible Students, and they look forward to 1925. That year comes and it goes - and in some areas, 90 % leaves. Say half or so leave altogether, and you are left with very few of the original ones. Some have died between 1918/19 and 1925 - what would they have done, had they lived till 1926? They didn't, so they died "steadfast" and "in good standing".
I have often wondered at these .... there were thousands lucky enough to die before the 1918/19 "thing" and before the 1925 "thing". They died faithful - but had they lived on, what would they have done? Their set of beliefs upon their death was close to 180 degrees different from what it evolved to be in the 1930s, and that again was very different form what it is today.
"Lucky be the one who dieth early, because he doth not have to meet with schisms or problems." "Woe unto him that haveth to keep on living, because he is the one who haveth to make choices."
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minimus
Old Hippie, It's like Armaggeddon. If you can make it before Armaggeddon, then you got a shot to live forever. It's better to die faithful before the big day and simply get a ressurection than to take a chance and be faithful for most of your life and then screw up somehow and lose your chance for everlasting life..........From my understanding, nearly all of the faithful ones, including Brother and Sister Russell, would have been disfellowshipped from the organization, had they been unlucky enough to be alive 20 years later.
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Nathan Natas
Minimus, you've given me what may be a brilliant idea! (or not!)
"Some people" have suggested that the WTS and the Mormons may be the same organization. We know that one teaching unique to the Mormons is "baptism of the dead."
Stuck in the spiritually breezeless doldrums in recent years, without the energy of "Knorr's Nonsense"(tm) and "Franz's Fantasies"(tm) to guide them, the WTS flounders like a halibut out of water. It needs "new light" that it can get enthusiastic about. And here it is:
Posthumus Disfellowshipping!
Dubs can now be encouraged to "turn in" the names of dead who might now qualify as apostates.
Or if some of them died in fires, they might be disfellowshipped for smoking.
As the WTS begins its 2003 purge, this could REALLY rally the troops!
Edited by - Nathan Natas on 15 January 2003 10:38:26
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minimus
Yes Nathan, I am, I mean, you are brilliant. Let's take this 1 step further. Imagine the growth for the organization with the REINSTATEMENT of dead loved ones! The potential is there for some huge numbers. I hope the WT. snoops aren't reading this board for our good ideas.
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TheOldHippie
So you die in 1887 and look forward to an instant resurrection.
OK, you are resurrected - in an instant to you, because you have been dead and then time isn't moving - and say that "ah! it's nice to be resurrected now in 1887 and keep a close watch at world affairs. Where is Christ? He has been present from 1874?"
- "No, he is present, but this 1919, and the world is just recovering from a great war that started in 1914."
"A great war starting in 1914? It should have ended in 1914! The pyramid said so!"
- "The Pyramid is a demonic structure, it is demonism to figure out chronology based on it"
"That's not what they said at the last Christmas I celebrated before I died!"
- "Christmas is pagan."
"What? No way! The next thing you'll try to tell me is that The Holy Cross is pagan as well?"
- "It is."
And so on. All one's beliefs, one's whole faith, upon one's resurrection is shown and "proven" to be utterly false. What is then left of one's steadfastness, of one's truthfullness to what one thought were the firm principles of one's faith?