Ky. Bill to Repeal Clergy "Silent Right"

by Kenneson 82 Replies latest jw friends

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Siegswife,

    You said: ***My point is that I think God fearing men and women would rather be governed by a system designed to protect innocent children from pedophile predators rather than to offer a haven to those same criminals because of the possibility that someone might be falsely accused***

    I now get the sense of what you were trying to get across. I fully agree.

    A sad fact about any law's, is the fact that someone somewhere will fall victim to being falsely accused of breaking them. It is the nature of the beast.

    The unwillingness of the wtbs to modify thier stand on the 'two witness', bible law in respects to child abuse, is proof positive that they do not, will not, exercise godly justice. For anyone to take such an unbending stance in these instances is imo a repudiation of anything resembling a God of Love. Love as described in the bible should be perfect. How could anyone claim that the exercise of this law is even close to perfection?

    Danny

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    I don't want innocent people to be falsely accused, but I sure in the heck don't want the continued abuse of children either. There must be a happy medium somewhere. I'm just not sure what it is.

  • Trauma_Hound
    Trauma_Hound

    Yeru2: I now don't expect you to get it, your not smart enough to follow a simple rule, about not having multiple accounts, must be nice being able to post twice as many messages than, anybody else on here. It's really simple, and you still don't get it, f*&^ your religion, it's not above following mans laws. If you can't deal with that, move to another country. Priest's are not above the law, and it's high time, they pay the consiquences like everyone else. If your are indeed a chaplin, I see you can't even follow the simple rules on this board.

  • donkey
    donkey

    I agree with Trauma. If you strap them in the chair I will gladly flip the switch!!!

  • abbagail
    abbagail

    Whyhideit wrote:

    GRITS -- I thought it was appropriate to lump them together too. I like the extra heat and awareness it adds to a religion who tries to act like they are whollier then thou.

    Hi Whyhideit: Don't you just KNOW the WTS is HATING it, lol! I love it, CC and JW go together like peanut butter and jelly, like Jerusalem and Judah, like soup and sandwich... you get my drift. Anyway, the latest MEDIA count (via a google search) on that AP article is it has been published in approximately 40 different news outlets and websites across the entire country, one in almost every state! letting the country know the JWs are no better than the CC when it comes to abuse coverups!

    Grits

  • onthego
    onthego

    IF IN THE U.S. PLEASE SEND A COPY TO LEGISLATORS IN YOUR OWN STATES.

  • Cassiline
    Cassiline
    "All those that confess"? First you mention an article about one priest who said he confessed, that then turns into ALL THOSE that confessed? How many will confess if this law is passed? About ZERO. However, continue the privelege and perhaps some of these guys would get help. Were I a priest and another priest, or ANY person confessed this to me I would withold absolution until such time as they turned themselves in to the police. This seems more an anti-clerical bent than is does about protecting kids. ~~Yeru

    Yeru

    The law of the Church, which is written by men, has complicated this entire matter. Instead of a simple uncomplicated confession for these heinous, detestable acts by some of its clergy committed against innocent children who are re-victimized by the catholic churches doctrine. It has become a war of words with steady theological speak instead of seeing the entire matter is exploitation of children. Its as if this dilemma is about words and phrases rather then that of sin committed against the churches children.

    Why fight against what you may call moral dilemma? In fighting for the so called rights of confessed pedophilias and hebephilias why not fight for the rights of the children who have been wronged over and over because of said doctrine which in place. Whether or not you or any priest withhold absolution is not going to change a pedophile nor will it help a child ever. While you as a priest withhold absolution in hopes that this person turn himself or herself in how many more children are raped and ruined for the rest of their lives? How many children I wonder could blame a priests inaction on their rape and possible pregnancy which leads to another sin (under Catholic Churchs Law) possibly being considered, that of abortion.

    How many murders have been committed when a parent or guardian finds out of the deviant behavior of these sick priests and decides to take the law into their own hands. Why cant people see the cycle, which is breaking apart families and killing the spirit of children because of an antiquated law, written by men which priest must follow? Why is it so convoluted? Why do you feel the need to protect a sexual deviant? This is what one is doing when ignoring a confession of a pedophile or that of a child who comes to you in shame asking for absolution when a priest rapes them. Penitent Clergy privilege allows pedophiles to continue in their revolting ways.

    You can't mention the millions killed because of religion until you mention the hundreds of millions killed because of the athiest states. Sorry, that's how it works.

    Why? Please inform me how I cannot speak of religious wars without first speaking of atheist regimes? We were speaking of religion to begin with why not stay on subject?

    Below is the article I spoke of and then some to show some of "ALL THOSE" who have confessed. ( bold text are my comments)

    edit, format

    Edited by - cassiline on 11 January 2003 22:50:29

  • Cassiline
    Cassiline

    In times past, priests accused of pedophilia were sometimes allowed to go to confession, get counseling and be transferred to other parishes, where they often found new victims. Even with the new steps one church official stated, "They still don't get it."

    As the Roman Catholic church is currently embroiled in the case of former priest John J. Geoghan, who is accused of abusing 130 children, a priest who was shifted around for years, the State Senate of Massachusetts is now taking matters into their own hands by voting on a bill to require that clergy members report past evidence of sexual abuse to state authorities and not just evidence of current sexual abuse. This new bill will go beyond the new Boston archdiocese rule that does not require reporting past abuse. In a letter from American Cardinal Ratzinger to U. S. Bishops that at "even a hint" of a case of pedophilia an investigation must be open and reported to Rome. While these secret tribunals have no direct effect on civil cases, they do settle the question about who pays the defense lawyers in criminal cases, since a priest found not guilty by these church trials would be presumably entitled to the support of the diocese

    http://ww2.moriel.org:8004/discernment/catholicism/vatican_pedophilia.htm

    Curtis also testified that records of complaints against priests would usually be put into the diocese's "secret archive, a canonically required cache of historical documents accessed only with keys kept by the bishop and the vicar. He said he would occasionally go into the archive and remove what he called "antiquated abuse complaints and destroy them.

    http://www.survivorsnetwork.org/News_New_York/NewYork_News_BackPage_1.htm

    Porter told Pope Paul VI in 1973 that he had been sexually molesting children, nearly 20 years before victims stepped forward to reveal the abuse they had suffered. Porter's confession is among newly released records which show that Catholic church officials -- including the late Cardinal Humberto Medeiros -- knew of child molestation allegations against Porter as far back as the 1960s. The court document is among hundreds of pages obtained by the Boston Herald and reported today.

    http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1656.cfm

    He told Park and other jurors that when he was Bishop of Stockton, he didn't know Father Oliver O'Grady was a molester. Mahony transferred the priest weeks after a police investigation. He claimed he never read the secret file his diocese kept which contained O'Grady's confession.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/23/eveningnews/main507039.shtml

    We are in the business of forgiveness," said the veteran pastor. "People go to confession, we forgive them and send them on their way. The problem is they [the bishops] did not know that pedophilia was incurable. They sent them [priests accused of abusing boys] to a psychiatrist who said they were OK. But it was a serial thing, and they should have been canned."

    http://loper.org/~george/trends/2002/Jan/82.html

    Rev. Donald Cozzens states priests have confessed to him

    http://www.stjohnsmn.org/response/letter_053002.htm

    Then look into the amount of Bishops who have said they were in err when they reassigned priests who confessed to the act of pedophilia, ephebophilia or hebephilia which are all sins under the Catholic law.

    http://www.innocenceindanger.org/innocence/news_scandal.htm

    Cardinal Bernard Law has he not said in public that he moved priest to other facilities upon confession and now regrets this?

    http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/top/features/documents/00882888.htm

    'The Vatican has issued new rules saying it will use secret ecclesiastical courts to try priests accused of sexually abusing children and will oversee the cases directly from Rome. The rules, which were quietly issued, are intended to 'protect the rights of the accused,' according to a high-ranking Vatican official.

    http://www.cwnews.com/Browse/1997/10/6140.htm

    Catholic priests are men and, as unredeemed sinners, it should not be viewed as surprising that they sometimes yield to temptations of the flesh. What is shocking is that these 'priests of the order of Melchizedec,' though they be given over to pedophilia, homosexuality and other forms of lewdness and debauchery are still considered 'ritually clean' and in no way hampered in the performance of their priestly duties. In other words, a priest who has just defiled himself with an altar boy is deemed fit to call down the Catholic Christ from the side of the Catholic Father and convert him into a wafer and glass of wine, which are then offered in 'bloodless sacrifice' for the sins of men. The Catholic priest who may have broken his oath of celibacy with a child in his parish is still considered ritually clean to sit in the confessional and dole out absolution and penance for sins confessed to him. Yet the Catholic layman must be ritually clean if he is to receive communion. He must be in a state of grace, free of the disqualifying burden of unconfessed mortal sin, else he will be guilty of sacrilege.

    http://sxws.com/charis/odds18.htm

    We are in the business of forgiveness," said the veteran pastor. "People go to confession, we forgive them and send them on their way. The problem is they [the bishops] did not know that pedophilia was incurable. They sent them [priests accused of abusing boys] to a psychiatrist who said they were OK. But it was a serial thing, and they should have been canned."

    http://loper.org/~george/trends/2002/Jan/82.html

    In the latest high profile case, former priest John Geoghan goes to trial this month in Massachusetts. More than 130 people have accused him of fondling or rape during the three decades he served in Boston area churches. Eighty-four civil lawsuits have been filed against him. Archdiocese records show that he was simply moved from one parish to another even though Church leaders had evidence that he was abusing children.

    What was this evidence? Confession perhaps?

    http://www.chick.com/bc/2002/confession.asp

    The rest of the world should follow suit IMO...

    Australian Anglican Priests Permitted To Break Confession Seal

    SYDNEY (CWN) - The Anglican Diocese of Sydney announced on Thursday that priests will no longer be bound by the seal of the confessional when penitents confess criminal acts in order to protect potential victims.

    The diocesan synod voted to change the rule as a result of an official report on child sexual abuse in August which found that the crime is widespread in New South Wales state. That report criticized churches for protecting members who have engaged in pedophilia by reacting to them as moral problems rather than criminal acts. "The intention is to put potential victims ahead of clergy concerns about things like the obligation to protect a person in the confessional or defamation," said a diocesan spokesman.

    Reverend John Woodhouse, who proposed the change, said that it could be immoral to do nothing to prevent further abuse of victims if the priest has knowledge of the crime. "The situations in which the clergy feel an obligation to break a confidence will be rare but it is a scandal that the church should set in law a requirement that we protect the perpetrator ahead of the victim," Woodhouse told the synod. However critics said the change could drive people away from seeking spiritual help if they think their deepest confidences are not safe. "Who now will seek solace in clergy in whom they are unsure they can trust?," said Garth Blake before the vote. "Surely we risk alienating people in a spiritual sense."

    http://www.cwnews.com/Browse/1997/10/6140.htm

    http://www.sltrib.com/2002/may/05112002/saturday/735973.htm

    www.manilatimes.net/national/2002/ jun/06/opinion/20020606opi1.html

    http://www.dontbelieve.com/Content/WofS/Yahoo!%20News%20-%20Priest%20Who%20Admitted%20Sex%20with%20Teen%20Shot%20in%20Baltimore.htm

    http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:3Z5XRr9q_jAC:www.thewandererpress.com/march28.pdf+Confessed%2Bpriests%2Bpedophilia&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

    http://www.sptimes.com/2002/07/07/Floridian/An_artist_speaks_his_.shtml

    http://www.saintmarynb.org/pedophilia.htm

    http://www.foody.org/atheist/insanity0202.html

    http://www.matriarch.com/sex4.htm

    Priests Confession, Nuns, Rape and Aids

    http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/news_results.asp?us=1&global=1&Title=Special+Series&Body=&Day=&Month=March&Year=2001&Submit=Find+the+Article%21

    Edited by - cassiline on 11 January 2003 20:48:10

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Cass,

    Sorry you think the solution is to tear down religion. I suppose we could become another Soviet Union, or Noth Korea. The solution for all this is for victims to turn to the Law.

    If priests are required to reveal when THIS crime is confessed then they can and will be required to inform the law when ALL crime is confessed as sin.

    I'm all for protecting kids, remember, I'm a victim of abuse too, but this is not a solution, it's an attack on religion and will go to the heart of destroying the trust that MUST exist between the confessor and the confessee.

    Should lawyers that know their client committed the crime they are charged with be required to testify against their clients?

  • searcher
    searcher

    I read through the whole list of states which do/do not exempt, and in EVERY case of exemption, it was for priest/clergy and PENITANT.

    Now a penitant is someone who confesses to a minister and is asking for frogiveness from god. (a perpetrator)

    HOWEVER when a victim/survivor of abuse reports an abuse,

    THEY ARE NOT A PENITANT and therefore the one who it is reported to, is not covered by the law of non-reporting.

    Such a simple distinction, but everyone seems to keep missing it.

    searcher.

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