Anyone help me on this

by Iron Eagle 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Iron Eagle
    Iron Eagle

    Hey folks

    I really need your help

    Over the past couple of years , Ive been viewing so called 'apostate' material from one source or another over the internet. I guess I have been leading a 'double life' as the JW's love to put it ; whilst still going to the meetings I was still reading things about the history of the borganization . It was kind of a drug to me ; once I started looking I just couldnt stop. ( hey this could turn out like a 'Watchtower saved me' stories like those in the magazines!! ... dont worry it wont )

    I guess It all started for me one night a couple of years back when I got home from a meeting and I went online . I started reading about the UNITED NATIONS scandal , and whilst I was intrigued In what I was reading , I still felt a massive sense of guilt because I really felt that Satan had crept into my life ...... somehow down the phonelines !!!

    After this obviously I started to view more and more material , In a way similar to that of when you first start studying with the Witnesses you just want to learn more and more about this prospect of living on earth with big furry animals and beautiful sisters surrounding you picking berrys and apples off trees.

    At this point I came across the '65 questions you must ask a JW' . I printed these questions off and started to study them intently . I was out of work at the time so I had plenty of time.

    However , as I started to do so , I realised that the person who contributed to these questions obviously wasn't for us , he was against us ! So I went down every avenue possible to eliminate anything this person said ! In time , I answered all 65 questions satisfactory to me , and reinforced my beliefs in the doctrinal structure of JW's.

    A few months went by and I had a suden surge of Kingdom activity. I remember going to an assembly and coming back really upbeat and resolute that I would do anything for Jehovah , as 'Satan had tested me but Jehovah made me see the light'.

    I became so confident that this was where I belonged , here In Jehovahs only true organization on earth. Everything seemd to fall into place , and despite a hicup at a convention in Nottingham , England ( where I met this girl but nothing developed :-( .....I was well upset ) In the summer leading up to 9/11 , everything seemed to be going well.

    Do you remember when you were a JW and things were going right ? Didn't it seem to you like nothing could bring you down? It was like a coat of ammour that nobody could destroy . Well that was how It went for me for a while.

    That feeling soon disapeared . I remembered the way In which I had 'examined' the scriptures so closely when I was studying the 65 questions. It was with the help of the Societys publications !!! I cant understand why It didnt come to me at the time , but thankfully It did come to me eventually. For example I studied the question of where the 'Great crowd' was situated ; In the Reverlation book it says blablabla ... yeh thats what it means !!! Or so I thought.

    So then I went back to 'spiritual darkness' (lol) and became less and less spiritually active . This was when I read Ray Franz 2 books ( thankyou Ray you saved my life man ) . This was when It really did all fall into place for me. Everything I had read and heard all began to add up in my mind ; I finally began to set myself free from the mumblings of old men In Brooklyn , NY.

    I am still on paper a member of the congregation here In England . A week ago an elder stopped by and more or less called me 'spiritually immature and weak' and went on to say that I was really confused etc. I spoke to him about several things , i.e. heavenly life , but when I brought up the subject Of Jesus being EVERYBODYS mediator , he answered in a way I would never have imagined . He said Jesus WAS everybodys mediator , full stop. Not that he was just mediator for the 144k.

    Can anybody please help me and give me advice on what to say to him next time ... where in the JW publication does it say that , and what other points can I bring up ?

    Thanks for listenening to my ultra boring story folks !!!!!!!! It sounds good to me is all !!

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Hi IRON EAGLE, and welcome here! You've found THE internet home for people who want to HONESTLY discuss the teachings of JW's (without blinders on).

    Your story is not boring at all! Thanks for sharing it.

    I find it interesting that the elders resort to name-calling when they believe they're "not getting through" to you. They did the same thing to me, and that let me know that they're not at all "guided by holy spirit" as they do their shepherding. They're just frustrated that you don't follow them like a puppy dog.

    As far as where you can find what the WTS really teaches on the mediator, that has been answered on this board before (as has almost every question imaginable). You know how they said you could look up answers in the WT Publications Index? Well you can find the "Real Deal" here by using the "search" feature on this forum.

    I typed in 1 Timothy 2:5 into this search engine, and I came up with this thread you can view which points out what the WTS teaches (Jesus only mediates for the 144K) and where it says so: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=44139&site=3 Look at the post by artful and the second post on this thread by UnDisfellowshipped.

    Happy reading, and I look forward to your future contributions to this board!!

    Gopher

  • WTinfiltrated
    WTinfiltrated

    <<You've found THE internet home for people who want to HONESTLY discuss the teachings of JW's >>

    Hahahahahahahhahaa haha ha ha ha hahhahahahahhah ahhahaha haha

    WTinfiltrated

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    Iron Eagle! I found that Quotes web site is one of the best..look in search write Quotes/

    Welcome to the site . But if you have the April 1st 1979 "Questions from the readers page 31 the answer is there Is The Man Christ Jesus Mediator only for 122.000 Jehovahs Witnesses

    If not I will write it out for you

    Grace ( Undeserved Kindness

  • mouthy
    mouthy

    sorry 144.000 -I lost a few somewhere

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Hello and Welcome to the Board Iron Eagle!

    I am very happy that you have discovered the REAL TRUTH!

    If you need to find any Watchtower Quotes or Scriptures, I will do my best to help you get them.

  • NewLight2
    NewLight2

    I think that this link will have the information you are seeking:

    Jehovah's Witnesses - Who is Your "Mediator?"
    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7831/mediator.html

    And here are some more links for you that will give you more information to share with the elders:

    JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES: A CRITICAL ANALYSIS
    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7831/

    Shaun's Research on the Jehovah's Witnesses
    (Site Contains Photo Documentation )
    http://www.jwfiles.com/index.htm

    My home page - Has lots of links to valuable information
    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/5385/Links1.html

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    http://Quotes.JehovahsWitnesses.com is an amazing Website where I get most of the Quotes from that I post on this Website.

    The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is the Mediator ONLY for the "Anointed" JW's and that the "Anointed" JW's are the "Mediators" for all of the "Other Sheep".

    The Bible says Jesus is the ONE Mediator for all PEOPLE:

    1st Timothy 2:5: For there is One God, and One Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

    (Also, as a side-note, that Scripture shows that Jesus Christ still has His Human Nature in Heaven, which the Watchtower Society also denies)

    Here are some Quotes I got from http://Quotes.JehovahsWitnesses.com and also from http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/dicwtdocs/newcovenant.html and also from "JeffT" (another Member of this Forum):

    *** The Watchtower, April 1st 1979 Issue, Page 31 ***

    Questions from Readers

    Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians?

    The term "mediator" occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.

    Moses was the "mediator" of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the "mediator of a new covenant" between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God" that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the "one mediator between God and men." (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word "mediator" in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is "mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians.

    The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant. During the millennium Jesus Christ will be their king, high priest and judge. For more detailed information, see Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1129 and 1130 under "Mediator"; also God's "Eternal Purpose" Now Triumphing for Man's Good, page 160, paragraph 10; also The Watchtower issues of February 15, 1966, pages 105 through 123; November 15, 1972, pages 685 and 686, under the subheading "Leading the Way to a New Covenant"; and April 1, 1973, pages 198 and 199, under the subheading "The New Covenant."
    ---------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, November 15th 1979 Issue ***

    "They [the great crowd] recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ."

    "To keep in relationship with Our Savior, God, the great crowd needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites."
    ---------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, December 15th 1982 Issue, Page 19 ***

    "Down to the spring of 1935 the dedicated, baptized witnesses of Jehovah had entertained in true faith the 'one hope' that was set before them in Ephesians 4:4-6, as follows: 'One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons.' But in that memorable year of 1935, at the convention held in Washington, D.C., the 'great multitude,' as visualized at Revelation 7:9-17 (Authorized Version), was identified as being composed of the Fine Shepherd's 'other sheep' of John 10:16."
    ---------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, February 15th 1991 Issue, Pages 15-20 ***

    "You Were Bought With a Price"

    8 Hence, the ransom sacrifice is fundamental to the new covenant, of which Jesus is the Mediator. Paul wrote: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all - this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times." (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) Those words especially apply to the 144,000, with whom the new covenant is made.

    [...]

    11 Nevertheless, in a preliminary way, the great crowd have already "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:14) Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God's Kingdom. Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God's friends. (Compare James 2:23.) During the Millennium, they will gradually "be set free from enslavement to corruption [until finally they] have the glorious freedom of the children of God."-Romans 8:21.
    ---------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, February 1st 1998 Issue, Pages 20-22 ***

    "The Other Sheep and the New Covenant"

    10 "Everyone" who "exercises faith in the Son" will benefit from the ransom sacrifice. (John 3:16, 36) Paul said: "The Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for their salvation." (Hebrews 9:28) Today, those earnestly looking for Jesus include surviving anointed Christians of the Israel of God and the millions making up the great crowd, who also have an everlasting inheritance. Both classes thank God for the new covenant and for the life-giving blessings associated with it, including the greater Atonement Day and the ministry of the High Priest, Jesus, in the heavenly Most Holy.

    [...]

    13 What happens when the last of the 144,000 realize their heavenly hope? Will the new covenant cease to apply? At that time, there will be on earth no remaining member of the Israel of God. All participants in the covenant will be with Jesus "in the kingdom of [his] Father." (Matthew 26:29) But we remember Paul's words in his letter to the Hebrews: "The God of peace . . . brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant." (Hebrews 13:20; Isaiah 55:3) In what sense is the new covenant everlasting?
    ----------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, March 15th 1954 Issue, Page 187 ***

    "Who may partake of the Lord's evening meal? All sincere Christians? No. Why not? Because the context of the record of Jesus' institution of the Memorial as well as the testimony of other scriptures show that it is limited to those who have the hope of sharing heavenly glory with Jesus Christ, which number the Scriptures show to be limited to 144,000. ... All men of good will, however, are welcome and should come and observe the celebration. How often and when should the Lord's evening meal be celebrated?

    Regardless of how often others may profess to do so, there is no Scriptural warrant for doing so more than once a year, even as the Passover, commemorating the deliverance from Egypt, was observed once a year, and that on the night of their deliverance, Nisan 14. Since Jesus instituted his evening meal on the night of Nisan 14, it is but fitting that we continue to celebrate it on the same date."
    -----------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, April 1st 1960 Issue, Page 199 ***

    "The Memorial's unique feature is the passing of the unleavened bread and red wine to all in attendance. But do all in attendance partake of them? No; in fact, in many if not in most instances today no one will partake. Why is that? Because the Scriptures show that Jesus instituted the Memorial of his death with those with whom he had made a covenant for his heavenly kingdom"
    -----------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, February 15th 1985 Issue, Page 17 ***

    "There is only a remnant of such spiritual sons now living, and these are the ones who properly partake of the emblems. This, then, accounts for the vast majority of Jehovah's Witnesses being observers and not partakers."
    -----------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, November 15th 1981 Issue ***

    "And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah's organization for salvation"
    -----------------------------------------------

    *** The Watchtower, July 1st 1965 Issue ***

    "However for God to answer our prayers for his spirit we must meet his conditions, among which is that we must recognize the visible channel he is using for that very purpose."
    -----------------------------------------------

    Here are some of the most confusing parts of Watchtower Doctrine on Jesus as the Mediator for the 144,000:

    The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is the Mediator between God and the 144,000 "Anointed Ones" ONLY.

    Why then does the "Great Crowd of Other Sheep" pray to Jehovah in the Name of Jesus Christ?

    The "Great Crowd" should pray in the name of the "144,000", and then the "144,000" should pray to Jehovah in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Oh, and this is all Bible-Based(TM).

    The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is the Mediator for the "Anointed Ones".

    But, the Watchtower Society also teaches that JW's SHOULD NEVER pray TO Jesus Christ.

    So, in order for Jesus to mediate the prayers of the "Anointed" to Jehovah, here's how it works:

    The "Anointed Ones" pray to Jehovah through the Name of Jesus, then Jehovah receives the prayer and gives the prayer to Jesus, so Jesus can then mediate the prayer back to Jehovah.

  • artful
    artful

    Welcome to the board Iron Eagle: Thanks for sharing your story, I'm sure many of us can relate to it. The people here have been a real goldmine during my quest to "rebuild" my Bible knowledge. I won't repeat what has been said on the other threads. But please check them out as there is a lot of very valuable information to be discovered.

    UD: You make a very interesting side point about 1Tim 2:5 showing that Jesus has his Human nature while in heaven. I have never thought of the scripture in that way before - thanks for bringing it to my attention!

    Cheers
    Artful

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    I thought this one was interesting too:

    "

    *** w89 8/15 30-1 Questions From Readers ***


    Questions From Readers

    Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the "mediator" who "gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"?

    The Bible contains both basic teachings and deep truths, which are solid food for study. One such study involves Jesus Christs role as Mediator. The apostle Paul wrote: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for allthis is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."1 Timothy 2:5, 6.

    To grasp what Paul is saying, we must first appreciate that the Bible sets out two destinies for faithful humans: (1) perfect life on a restored earthly paradise and (2) life in heaven for Christs "little flock," numbering 144,000. (Luke 12:32; Revelation 5:10; 14:1-3) Christendom teaches that all good people go to heaven, which unscriptural position has colored the general view, so that Jesus is considered a go-between for all such people. What, though, does the Bible indicate?

    The Greek word mesi'tes, used for "mediator," means one who finds himself between two bodies or parties. It was a many-sided technical term of Hellenistic legal language. Professor Albrecht Oepke (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) says that mesi'tes was "one of the most varied technical terms in the vocabulary of Hellen[istic] law."

    But why does the Bible use a legal term for Jesus mediatory role? As background, consider what Paul wrote about Gods Law given to Israel assembled before Mount Sinai: "It was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator." (Galatians 3:19, 20) That mediator was Moses. He was the intermediary agent between Jehovah and the fleshly nation of Israel. An agent for what? For establishing a covenant, or legal contract, between God and the nation.

    Does this mean that there is a specific legal sense involved in Jesus role as Mediator? Yes. Note Pauls comment at Hebrews 8:6. After speaking about the tabernacle and other typical representations under the Law covenant, he wrote: "Jesus has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises." The "better covenant" was the new covenant, which replaced the covenant mediated by Moses. (Hebrews 8:7-13) The new covenant was "legally established." It laid the basis for some of Christs followers, beginning with the apostles, to gain "entry into the holy place," heaven itself.Hebrews 9:24; 10:16-19.

    There are other indications too of the legal nature of Jesus role as Mediator of the "new covenant." Commenting on Gods promise at Psalm 110:4, Paul wrote: "To that extent also Jesus has become the one given in pledge [en'gyos] of a better covenant." (Hebrews 7:22) This is the only Biblical use of the word en'gyos. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says: "The engyos guaranteed that a legal obligation would be carried out." So Jesus as Mediator of the new covenant serves as a legal pledge that "a better hope" would be realized.Hebrews 7:19.

    Elsewhere Paul uses yet another word having a legal sense, arrabon', translated "token." The same dictionary says: "The Gk. word arrab_on . . . is a legal concept from the language of business and trade." Note how Paul used this legal term: "He who has anointed us is God. He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts." (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22) Both other occurrences of arrabon' also deal with Gods anointing of Christians with spirit, bringing them an everlasting reward or inheritance in the heavens as spirit sons of God.2 Corinthians 5:1, 5; Ephesians 1:13, 14; see Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures.

    Clearly, then, the new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind. It is a carefully arranged legal provision involving God and anointed Christians.

    This should help us to understand 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. Here the reference to "mediator" was made after the five other occurrences of the word in letters written earlier. Hence, Timothy would have understood Jesus mediatorship to be His legal role connected with the new covenant. The Pastoral Epistles, by Dibelius and Conzelmann, acknowledges that at 1 Timothy 2:5 the term "mediator" has a legal significance, and "although in this passage, in contrast to Heb 8:6, the [covenant] is not mentioned, one must nevertheless presuppose the meaning mediator of the covenant, as the context shows." Professor Oepke observes that 1 Timothy 2:5 presents Jesus as "the attorney and negotiator."

    A modern-day illustration may help to clarify this, especially if you are not a spirit-anointed Christian. Think of a legal case in which an attorney is involved. His role may be not so much that of a lawyer arguing for justice as that of one who is mediating or bringing about a legal contract acceptable to and beneficial to two parties. Of course, you are not in that legal case, so in that sense he is not serving as your attorney. Yet he may be your very close friend who in other ways gives you valuable help.

    Sometimes an attorneys work produces results that benefit many others. So it is with Jesus legal accomplishments as Mediator of the new covenant. It produces what the Law covenant did not, a heavenly "kingdom of priests." (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9) Thereafter anointed Christians in the Kingdom will work with Jesus from heaven to bring a blessing to "all nations of the earth."Genesis 22:18.

    The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah. Christ said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) All who will gain life on earth must direct their prayers to Jehovah through Jesus. (John 14:13, 23, 24) Jesus also serves as a compassionate High Priest who is able to apply in their behalf the benefits of his sacrifice, allowing them to gain forgiveness and eventual salvation.Acts 4:12; Hebrews 4:15.

    Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using "mediator" in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, it refers to Christ as legal Mediator (or, "attorney") of the new covenant, this being the restricted way in which the Bible uses the term. Jesus is also a corresponding ransom for all in that covenant, both Jews and Gentiles, who will receive immortal life in heaven. The apostle John referred to these at 1 John 2:2. But he indicated that others too will receive the benefit of Christs sacrifice: "He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole worlds."

    Those of the whole world are all who will gain eternal life in a restored earthly paradise. Millions of such approved servants of God now have that earthly hope. They view Jesus as their High Priest and King through whom they can daily gain approach to Jehovah. They rely on Jesus ransom, which is available to them, just as it will be to men such as Abraham, David, and John the Baptizer when these are resurrected. (Matthew 20:28) Thus, Christs sacrifice will lead to everlasting life for all obedient mankind."

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