Jesus died on a stake?

by SwedishChef 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  undercover

  I read something on the forum the other day where the Society has kind of backed down from making definate claims of the stake theory over the cross theory. I was curious as to where they this is in their literature. Anyone have anything on this?

  The Society goes on the claim(or used to anyway) that the word used for cross actually means timber or stake or just a single piece of wood. So, it wasn't a cross, it was a stake in the ground. What muddies up that theory is that archelogists and historians are sure that the cross was a means of punishment in Rome at that time. I read something somewhere that said that condemned killers carried the cross beam to the actual execution site where they were then nailed to the cross beam and it was lifted up and attached to a stake already in the ground. This makes sense to me and it agrees with the Bible account of Jesus carry his "timber" to the execution site.

  Now here's what's upsetting about this. If no one is sure then how does the Society know one way or the other enough to make a definate claim as to Jesus NOT dying on a cross. Why not just say "the word in the Bible is translated "timber" but we do not have enough evidence today to know exactly how it happened so we will not pretend to be experts, but know that however Jesus died, the important thing is that he did die for us".
• 

  eyeslice

  I am still "in" and get all the mags and literature regularly. I detect no shift on this particular doctrine at the moment.

  However, this is not surprising, as in recent years, perhaps since the change to the generation of 1914 doctrine in 1995, nothing much as changed.

  My view, for what it is worth, is that the GB has ran out of ideas or the bottle to change anything. Doctrinally, the WTBTS is dying a lingering death. It cannot defend unsound doctrines and since the Ray Franz incident of the 1980s is frightened of re-examining any core beliefs.

  eyeslice
• 

  Yerusalyim

  A more careful reading of the plural "nails" issue is that there were NAILS (plural) driven through his hands. The ever effiecent Romans would have used one nail were it sufficient.
  This whole issue for them is based on the word "Stauros" which, indeed, is literally translated stake. HOWEVER, if this greek word can ONLY mean an upright pole, what greek word was used for the most common form of Roman crucifixion, the T shaped cross ? ; Answer?; Stauros. So thier arguement about the word "stauros" is hollow and baseless.
  T he Romans prefered the "T" shaped cross because it was readily recognizable from quite a distance for what it was, where as a simple upright pole might be a lot of things from a distance.
  Further, Josephus testifies that the Romans had a regular place for execution outside the city walls with scaffolding set up more or less permenantly.; The condemned would carry their cross beam out to the scaffolding, be nailed to the cross beam, and then lifted up onto the scaffold and their feet nailed to that. ; He mentions that the Romans executed so many during the seige of Jerusalem that they ran out of scaffolding and started affixing the cross beams to the Wall of the City. By the by, Mel Gibson is filming a movie "The Passion" about the last twelve hours of Jesus' life. It's filmed entirely in Latin and Aramaic and Gibson is fighting the idea of using subtitles. It's supposed to have a particularly gory crucifixion scene. Might prove an interesting work.
• 

  Ed

  By the by, Mel Gibson is filming a movie "The Passion" about the last twelve hours of Jesus' life. It's filmed entirely in Latin and Aramaic and Gibson is fighting the idea of using subtitles. It's supposed to have a particularly gory crucifixion scene. Might prove an interesting work.

  Some things in life are bad. They can really make you mad! Other things just make you swear and curse. When you're chewing on life's gristle, Don't grumble - give a whistle! And this'll help things turn out for the best.... And.... [ all together now ] Always look on the bright side of Life... Always look on the bright side of Life...
• 

  yard dog

  The arguement the Society uses in regards to Jehovah not allowing his Son to die on the pagan-sex symbol cross is really baseless. They fail to realize that this was Satans moment-the bruising of the heal as some would call it. It only makes sense that Satan would want the most paganistic symbols attached to Jesus' death. I asked my mom about this and she was speechless. She hates it when I do that.
• 

  Trauma_Hound

  Actually the romans, used trees alot to impale people on, using the timber as the cross arm, as it was easier to use an existing tree, then arrect a new timber.
• 

  heathen

  Ironically I'm in favor of the stake over the cross interpretation . According to the mosaic law in dueteronomy the hanging on a stake was to be used for such crimes as blaspheme. If you remember that Joshua hung the king of Ai on a stake when capturing a city. Since the pharisies had a big problem with Jesus claiming to be a king and Gods son the charges they were bringing against him were based on the mosaic law and not the roman law .Pontius Pilate gave the jews every chance to release Jesus do to the lack of evidence that Jesus posed a threat to the roman empire . They eventually had him executed only because they were afraid of an uprising . One more thing about the hands versus the wrist arguement is that the hand has more bones in it than any other part of the body so sticking a nail in the hand would have caused the prophesy of no bones broken to be a no show .
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  daveyJones

  Heathen,

  The problem with your "stake" theory is that the Romans executed Jesus, not the Jews. He was executed in the Roman fashion. Why would they break from their norm? Also, the Romans were actually quite good at driving the nails in a particular spot in the writst where the medial nerve runs in which bones might be displaced, but not broken. The harder part is the feet, the nails were generally driventhrough the heel sideways (OUCH!) There were other methods, but this method might end up breaking bones.
• 

  heathen

  Regardless of who actually carried out the sentence it is apparent after reading the account the romans could be swayed by public opinion and religious disputes among the jews . The fact that jesus was removed from the stake before nightfall is also part of the mosaic law which states acursed is the one hanging on a stake and also makes sense as to why jesus prayed in the garden to have the cup pass him. Imo
• 

  acsot

  When I first realized the borg was totally out of it, I researched cross vs. stake although I failed to see why the GB makes such a stink out of it - the point being that Jesus died an agonizing death. Useless debates about words that the WTS criticizes others for makes up the major part of their rantings and ravings. I came across the same point:

  What muddies up that theory is that archelogists and historians are sure that the cross was a means of punishment in Rome at that time. I read something somewhere that said that condemned killers carried the cross beam to the actual execution site where they were then nailed to the cross beam and it was lifted up and attached to a stake already in the ground. This makes sense to me and it agrees with the Bible account of Jesus carry his "timber" to the execution site.

  DaveyJones says:

  The harder part is the feet, the nails were generally driventhrough the heel sideways (OUCH!)

  Maybe it was part of the same article I was researching as above, but I also came across the above-mentioned point about the nails driven through the heel sideways.

  I still can't figure out why they make such a big deal of it, unless it's just another futile attempt at being "different from the world".