The 2300 Daze of Daniel

by refiners fire 40 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Farkel

  refiners fire,

  : I wish the Farkmeister hadnt put that up about adding up all the days cause now ive wasted time trying to work out how "crazy Freddie" arrives at his conclusions.He says:

  : ...."2,300 days would amount to six lunar years, four lunar months and twenty days".....

  : Well it does if you count a year as 360 days, and a month as 30 days. Calculating it out that way would bring you to October 21, 1944 (in my calculation). But Fred doesnt stay in that 360/30 mode when he starts his addition and subtraction,He doesnt even seem to convert his calculations into 365 1/4 day periods (like the farkmeister does)

  I would like to take this oppotunity to apologize to you for the time I blasted you for blasting me! You blasted me for something several months after you joined this board, and I blasted you for not doing any of the hard work that it takes to research and put up stuff like you did in this thread. I've seen lately that you are actually doing the hard work and putting your mind to work to do the work and put up something that helps dubs actually THINK. I salute you, sir.

  Let's get to work, shall we?

  Fred Franz did not mention in that particular Watchtower article that the Jews who (allegedly used the Babylon calendar of 360 days per year) had to insert a month every-so-often to make that same year come out to 365 1/4 days. Otherwise and over time, in any given month, summer would become winter, and the calendar would be worthless for measuring seasons, for example. A loss of five 1/4 days per years would soon make December become November, then become October, and so forth. Freddie just HAD to come up with a way to justify the change in the Watchtower CORPORATE Charter look somehow, "Biblical" and he counted on dub stupidity to believe his own nonsense. Remember, he was the guy who cooked the books on the Bible, so to speak, to justify Joe Rutherford's shameless luxury in his summer home in San Diego. The house wasn't for Joe. No! It was for some phantom prophets who never showed up!

  I still assert that Fred Franz was far worse than Rutherford: he came up with the modern DFing policy, he came up with 1925 and 1975, he came up with his nonsense about what married couples may and may not do in their own bedrooms even with their own consent, he came up with the ban on alternative military service, he came up with ban on organ transplants, he came up with the notion that dubs should hate in the "Biblical Sense," he came up with the notion that lying is perfectly acceptable to dubs if the person they will lie to doesn't "deserve" to know the truth, he came up with the notion of "absolute spiritual endangerment" which allows a dub spouse to dump his/her spouse if the other one doesn't buy into dub bullshit. He came up with the notion that ONLY the anointed are in the New Covenant With Christ and that the "other sheep" are not: they are merely second-class Christians and cannot attain salvation without the "benefit" of the "anointed." This was convenient for Fred Franz: he was in that elite "anointed" class and could prove it. Of course he could prove it: he DEFINED it!

  In short, Fred Franz was the biggest scumbag in Watchtower history and hurt more people than Chuck Russell and Joe Rutherford combined. It's interesting to note that not ONE of Franz's books is still in print. May he rot in the hell he made for himself.

  Again, thank you for taking the effort to produce some solid material on JW issues, RF.

  Farkel, stepping off the soapbox, CLASS

  Edited by - Farkel on 19 January 2003 0:34:32
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  refiners fire

  Heres a quite recent article pertaining to the 1260 Daze of Daniel from the Watchtower of 1 Nov, 1993. Article: DANIELS PROPHETIC DAYS AND OUR FAITH.

  Some of the points about the 1260 days, or "TIME, TIMES AND HALF A TIME" are , well, interesting to say the least . It says:

  QUOTE..... Daniel 7:25, we read: "He will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time,and times and half a time.

  Next it says:

  QUOTE.....This symbolic horn, originally imperial Britain, developed during the first world war into the Anglo-American dual world power, now dominated by the United States. For three and a half times, or years, this power would harass the holy ones and try to change times and law. Finally, the holy ones would be given into its hand

  The WT has SHIFTED the meaning of the scripture. Being given into His hand FOR 1260 days is not the same as being given into His hand at the END OF 1260 days. Is it?

  Of course not. Perhaps the WT has no evidence that the org was given into His hand between 1914- 1918 and so must change the meaning of the scripture? Lol.

  Still the WT tries to convey the impression that it was persecuted by America and under hardship from October 1914 thru to 1918 causing the Org to " preach in sackcloth" .

  As his first act in "defiance" against God, this FIERCE KING (Britain /America) sought to CHANGE TIMES AND LAWS. What evidence is there that this occurred? The article says:

  QUOTE......For years before World War I, Jesus' anointed brothers publicly warned that 1914 would see the conclusion of the appointed times of the nations. When war broke out, it was evident that the warning had been ignored. Satan used his "wild beast," the world political organization then dominated by the British Empire, in an effort to "change times and law," to put off the time when God's Kingdom would rule He failed. God's Kingdom was established in heaven, far out of human reach..

  Notice it says That the Anglo American power sought to "change times and laws" but it never tells us exactly HOW they did this. Perhaps it was by not immediately surrending full political control to the Russellite sect! It continues:

  QUOTE......In October, the appointed times ended. By the end of the year, the anointed remnant were expecting persecution, as seen from the fact that the yeartext chosen for 1915 was Jesus' question to his disciples, "Are ye able to drink of my cup?"..Hence, from December 1914, this small band of witnesses 'preached in sackcloth,' humbly enduring as they announced Jehovah's judgments.

  Humbly enduring WHAT in 1915 ?? Apparently enduring the future prospect of a persecution being imaginarily heaped upon them by the anglo American beast. This then was the cause of their Preaching in Sackcloth.. Nothing! Next it says:

  QUOTE.....A shock to many was, in 1916, the death of C. T. Russell, the first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society

  More ASHES and MOURNING. Now in 1916. But The death of Russell is not the fault of the Anglo American power is it?

  QUOTE......As war fever took hold, they encountered mounting opposition. Some were imprisoned. Individuals, such as Frank Platt in England and Robert Clegg in Canada, were tortured by sadistic authorities.

  I wonder how much persecution there was of the Russellites during WW1 ? Not sure on that one. So much for the 3 and a half years of the Orgs being given into His hand between 1914- 1918, :

  QUOTE.......Finally, on June 21, 1918, J. F. Rutherford, the new president, together with the directors of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, was sentenced on false charges to a long term in prison. Thus, at the end of the prophetic period, the "little horn" killed the organized public preaching work..

  And not even on time at that, cause the 1260 days ended in April 1918.

  Edited by - refiners fire on 19 January 2003 6:19:18

  Edited by - refiners fire on 19 January 2003 6:36:43
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  johnny cip

  thanks for this research; i had a lot of this printed before but dad thrown it all in the garbage.. correct me if i'm wrong. did not the judge say in the 20's that all jw's were to be raptured into heaven in 1932.. i have not seen that wt gem here, or did i miss it . i have only seen it on one or two sites with the book and page were it was printed... thanx .....john
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  refiners fire

  Johnny.

  Ive heard a lot of stuff but i never heard the date 1932 mentioned before. It might well be the case he did say it though "in private conversation" while having a quiet drink after a hard day at the prophetic office or somesuch. 1932 is 7 years beyond 1925, so, its possible.(They thinking in 7s and 3 1/2 lots) Ive seen nothing about it in any book though, nor any 1925 Watchtower Ive read. Youd better get the opinion of an expert, Alan F might know.......or the Farkmeister.
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  johnny cip

  refiners ; i did a little looking ... it seems that in the finished mystery 1926-7 edition that the wt said since christiandom was not over thrown in 1925 that it would be in 1931-32. i found this site at ;answers for jehovah's witnesses . www.1.tip/%et661020/wtcitaten/part3.htm fron the feb 15 38 wt pg 54 under 1932. i think have read more on this before. but i really don't think the wt pushed the 32 date.... i need to get some of those cd's with the wt's from 1879 to the 40's.. i would like to get the golden age, i know it has a lot of uncontraververtable facts in it ... jan 1 or 15 95 wt...john
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  TheOldHippie

  Refiners fine stated that " Notice it says That the Anglo American power sought to "change times and laws" but it never tells us exactly HOW they did this."

  This is commented upon in the literature as the attempts to destroy the Bible Students and their worship during WWI, so whatever one might feel about that explanation, it HAS been dealt with.
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  refiners fire

  ...."This is commented upon in the literature as the attempts to destroy the Bible Students and their worship during WWI,"......

  What attempts were those? Go read the article then come back and tell me what the attempt by the "fierce king" to "alter times and laws" involved. Their evidence looks VERY THIN to me.

  Maybe Im missing something
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  onacruse

  johnny, I'd never heard of 1932 as being another "marked" (LOLOL) date. I found the following in The Finished Mystery (1918--75,000 edition) and Vindication 3 (1932) books:

  The Finished Mystery, p. 569

  This vision of the prophet Ezekiel depicts the established theocratic Kingdom of God on earth, civil and religious, spiritual and earthly. While the Temple is an architectural possibility, as shown in the accompanying illustrations, (and may be erected at Jerusalem), it, in its various parts, surroundings, rites and worshippers, is a type and symbol of "better things to come," after the wars, revolutions and anarchy of the period from 1914 to 1925 have passed.

  The Time

  of the establishment of the Kingdom in power is indicated as "in the fourteenth year after that the city (Christendom) was smitten" or fourteen years after 1918, viz., in 1932. Ezek. 40:1.

  Vindication 3, p. 5

  Ezekiel was given a vision of a great and marvelous temple. That vision of Ezekiel con cerning the temple has been a mystery for ages and generations, but now is due to be under stood. The Scriptures and the physical facts both show that this prophecy was not due to be understood by God's people on earth until the year 1932. The explanation thereof is fully set forth in this Book Three of Vindication.

  Vindication 3, p. 177

  The World War, by which "Christendom, was smitten, ended in 1918, and fourteen years thereafter, to wit, in 1932, God permits the publication of the meaning of Eze kiel's vision concerning the temple. The facts show that it was fourteen years after the destruction of Jerusalem before Ezekiel got his temple vision about which he prophesied. God's people, whom Ezekiel foreshadowed, therefore could not expect to get a full understanding until God's due time, and they could not expect to get an understanding of all of his truth at one time.

  Vindication 3, p. 182

  The vision of Ezekiel does not fix the date of the erection of the temple structure. He saw it as though it were complete. The time of Ezekiel's vision would seem to more particularly corre spond to the time when the faithful remnant of God's covenant people as a company would be given an understanding or vision of the meaning of Ezekiel's prophecy relating to the temple. The Lord came to his temple in 1918, as the proof shows, and fourteen years after that time would bring us to the date 1932.

  Another classic example of shifting from "it will be fulfilled" to "it will be fully revealed."

  Craig

  Edited by - onacruse on 20 January 2003 16:35:12
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  johnny cip

  thank you Cruise ; for you research , just from what you showed in the finished mystery 1918 they are pionting to 1932 with out coming right out and saying it ... i think there was a little more on 1932. on my last post i gave a site, please check it and give me your thoughts.. i know in the past i had some other info on 1932 ..were they said they were to be raptured at that time... but i could be wrong!!! do you know a site that had the finished mystery in full or other rutherford books or wt after russell in full in the web. i do know a site that has all russell's writings in full till 1916.... thank you again ...john
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  onacruse

  john, I couldn't get that link to work Can you double-check it? Thanks.

  Most of the Russell and all the Rutherford stuff I have is on CDs from Research Applications Institute (got them through Freeminds). Also got a couple CDs from Chicago Bible Students. I don't know of a site where the entire catalogue of Rutherford-era stuff is available online.

  I'm thinking that more about 1932 might be buried in the 20s Watchtowers, which I have in a non-searchable database (also from RAI). I'll let you know if I find something more.

  Craig

  PS: refiner's--sorry to hijack your thread

  Edited by - onacruse on 20 January 2003 19:31:19