FINALLY stood up to my father re: religion!

by back2dafront 18 Replies latest jw experiences

  • back2dafront
    back2dafront

    As you all may remember, I left the organization 4 years ago - never DF'd, never dissassociated, just left. My parents initially tried everything they could to get me to come back but to no avail. They've never really shunned me because we still talk on the phone, but seeing that we live on the opposite coasts, I've only seen them once in 4 years.

    We've had discussions on my beliefs and what not before, but it's been awhile. Last night, I talked with my dad and he asked how Elizabeth and I were doing. He then asked if we lived together, and I said "Yeah, we've been living together." (I assumed my mom told him, but she didn't). I knew he'd start in on me, I was waiting for him.

    He said that since we live together (and have sex), God will not bless our efforts and our marraige is bound to fail!

    I said, "What credible evidence or statistics do you have to support that? Do those that have sex before marraige have a higher divorce rate than those that don't?"

    DAD: "I think you'll find the statistics will support that."

    ME: "I doubt it. Regardless, for me personally, it would not have worked had I married the first girl I dated. That obviously would have been a mistake. I know you, being an elder, have seen countless couples, a year after getting married, in the elders room at each others throats because they can't stand each other. The reason they got married was because they needed a sexual release and they jumped on the first person they felt was suitable marraige material. That's not what I want to happen to me - I never want to go through a divorce, so I'm taking every precautionary step available, and getting to know someone sexually before you marry them has definite advantages."

    DAD: Well, be assured that Jehovah only blesses marraiges that are holy and chaste before his eyes....(blah, blah)

    ME: Well, if you're going to take every word in the Bible literally and apply the fornication scriptures to me, then you have to apply "God will ruin those ruining the earth" to yourself, because every time you get in your car, you are ruining the earth. So I guess we're all going to die.

    SILENCE.

    He stumbled for a way to get out of it - said that it doesn't work that way....yadda yadda. I told him he cannot do that. He cannot say which scriptures apply and which ones don't. He says he doesn't, God tells us. Went back and forth on that for a bit...

    Then I asked him if he had any religious studies before he met the Witnesses. NO. He had read part of the bible before, but that's it. Then I asked him if he did any research on the religion before joining. (I got this from a post on this site awhile back!) He asked what kind of research - I said "just like you'd research the VIN # of a used vehicle before buying it." (Good illustration because he's worked in the automotive industry all of his life.) He hesitated and said no. I told him that in order to find out factual information, you have to cross reference material, you can't rely on one source, because if it's tainted or biased, your knowlege will be tainted and biased as well. If you get your information from several different sources and they all say the same thing, then you're on the right path. I said I too am in search of the truth, that's why I read as much material as possible about the history of the earth, the history of religion, christianity AND organizations such as JW's, from the start to the present.

    DAD: Well you must realize that a lot of information out there that is against JW's is from people that have left and are bitter towards the organization.

    ME: Yeah, but not all of it is. A lot of it has nothing to do w/ former members. A lot of it is pure history. Anyone with a trained mind can determine whether or not a document is laced with biased opinions regarding the subject.

    SILENCE.

    I didn't pursue it any further. I felt that if I said too much it would scare him off or something. He asked me why I left (i've explained to them at least 10 times and they still never seem to hear me). I told him that my expectations of the organization were shattered when I spent 5 years at the HQ. I said I've seen the inner workings of the organization, something he's never done before.

    DAD: What expectations were shattered?

    ME: I thought it was this spiritual, righteous haven, and although there are spiritual-minded people there, it's a BUSINESS. It's a CORPORATION, dad - and they do things just like any other corporation does things - their main concern is STAYING IN BUSINESS. That's what's it all about.

    SILENCE.

    Then I told him I had to go. I didn't want him to come back with anything - I want him to seriously thing about just the few things we discussed. I've been afraid to talk to him like that because we still talk on the phone periodically and I don't want to give them any reason to totally shun me, so I've been holding a lot in, and well...a lot came off of my chest.

    I hope he'll take some of it to heart - my folks mean well and have excellent heart conditions - they truly only want to do what is right - I hope somehow they will see what it's all about too.

    I've been trying to find some stats that would indicate if marraiges where couples don't have sex until they are married are more successful than those that don't - no luck yet. Anyways, just thought I'd share this w/ everyone...I'm kind of nervous about what may happen as a result of the conversation, but it felt really good to get it off of my chest as well. We'll see what happens!

    cheers,

    back2dafront

  • Witch Child
    Witch Child

    Good luck with this. I really hope it all works out for you.

    ~Witch

  • animal
    animal

    Whats to worry about.. worse thing to happen is get DF'd and shunned like many of us...... then you get on with your life.

    Animal

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    congrats! That took a lot of courage.

    It sounds like you are in a delicate situation. Obviously your parents are true-believing dubs, and for them to really learn what its about and have their illusions shattered would be devastating for them. But at the same time, when they start laying it on you about Jehovah this and Jehovah that, you can only keep quiet for so long.

  • Silverleaf
    Silverleaf

    Hi back2dafront,

    you wrote: Do those that have sex before marraige have a higher divorce rate than those that don't?"

    Interestingly I have heard that people who live together before marriage do have a higher divorce rate than those who don't - [I don't know about people who don't live together but still have sex] unfortunately I can't remember the source of this info so I don't know if it's biased or not. I don't agree with the statistics, however and since my DH and I lived together before we were married and just celebrated our 10th anniversary, I don't think it necessarily has to do with living together or anything else, the longevity of a marriage has to do with how hard the people are willing to work at it. Making sure you're with the right person for the right reasons is a good first step to working at it.

    Silverleaf

  • Flip
    Flip

    Very, very sharp indeed.

  • Billygoat
    Billygoat

    Wow. That took real guts! I'm proud of you for standing up to him. I have a hard time doing that and it's been 12 years since I've been out. Good job!

  • simwitness
    simwitness

    Just an observation:

    Do those that have sex before marraige have a higher divorce rate than those that don't?"

    Interestingly I have heard that people who live together before marriage do have a higher divorce rate than those who don't -

    You always have to question how polls like this are done, For example if they pole those in divorce court, or if they poll those that are in happy marraiges.

    Seems no one asks those in happy marraiges how they got together. They only concern themselves with the divorce side of things... as if looking for somewhere to put the blame.

    Speaking from personal experience, the first b**ch I married, I lived with first, and we divorced five years later (almost to the day!) The second lady I married, we lived together at first, and are happily married 12 years later, and will spend the rest of our lives together.

    Hows that for stats? Does that prove or disprove the point?

    Anyway, I digress.

    Back2daFront... I wish you luck in your conversations with your father. It sounds like you have a good starting point...

  • back2dafront
    back2dafront

    Yeah, I could never make a statement like that...i mean, there have been people that got married after 2-3 weeks, and they're still together. Rare, yes, but...just goes to show it depends on the people.

    thanks for your comments - i'll keep you guys updated on future conversations. :-)

  • StinkyPantz
    StinkyPantz

    I think what you did was great! I tried the same thing with my mother and it's been over 6 months since our last conversation, I hope things fare better with you.

    As for wondering whether or not couples last if they live together first, I took a Marriage & Family class at my university right after my marriage and learned a lot. Unfortunately, your father was correct statistically, couples tend not to last as long when they live together first, but it doesn't mean God is cursing the family.

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