You know whats good about this thread? That even though there are some disagreements, it is still happening. And without any name-calling. You couldn't have this discussion with JWs because it's political. Political history, but still political. They don't know anything about it or care anything about and can't talk rationally about it. It's good to see people thinking for themselves and debating these type things. Thanks guys.
We're all Americans....Reparations?
by Country Girl 106 Replies latest social humour
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bigboi
Bigboi- Last I checked you don't have to be white to be italian or irish or german or french . I do not see the word white although I didn't go over the whole thing. I think it's beyond the scope of reason to try and legislate peoples preferences to the point of telling companies how many of each race they are allowed to hire or telling private schools who they are to admit.
Yeah, but don't be silly and try to skirt the issue. You remind me of a guy they interviewed during a march of Klansmen who referred to the Confederacy as an ethnically diverse society comprised of African Americans, European Americans, Asians...etc.
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Country Girl
Hi Stinky:
Yer trying to overwhelm me... let me take your post one point at a time.
You can comment on this thread, no matter who you are. My main thrust was the black population since that is where most of the media concentrates it's commentary. It can also be applied to all other races.
You say that my post appears to take the stance that "all" black people seek reparations. The key word is "appears". Nowhere in my post do I say that black people are the ONLY parties to seek reparations. However, the subject is that black groups are the ones that are seeking reparations at this particular point in history, and thusly, the post. SP, I am quite aware that most black folks are NOT out for reparations, but this still is a very interesting subject to *me* , and hence, the reason I brought it up. I do agree with your reasons that reparations are not a good idea. All four reasons are very sensible and I totally agree.
The Confederate war started OUT being about States' rights, but it evolved into the slavery issue. If it didn't, it eventually become the issue, it wouldn't be touted for what it was now. The Emancipation Proclamation would be worth NOTHING if it didn't mean something to someone. What it meant to a bunch of slaves down South was that they were free. Let's not dilute the issues. Who cares what it started OUT as.. what it became is the most important thing. What it showed is that right won out for the best. Is that true or not?
Reparations. Umm... my Father was promised 160 acres in the Midwest. He didn't get it. He was here after the war. The Nazis stole his farm. He came here because he had nothing. He's Greek. Should he sue for reparations? No. It was so long ago it doesn't matter. Is everything equal still? No. My Mother's parents hated him for twenty years because he was a foreigner. It'll never be equal with him and Americans cuz he's not part of our cultue, and he can't speak our language as well as we can. Nothing will ever be equal for anyone. That's the beauty of being in America.. you can OVERCOME those differences and still rise to the top. The world is never an even playing field for anyone. No matter what reality you live in.
Should I be accorded a place on the board of directors of a major corporation because of the fact I am a WOMAN? No. I have to EARN my place. See.. it's not just about blacks, or immigrants, or whatever, it's GENDER, too. And sexual orientation. ALL of us are discriminated against.
If you put it that way.. I am a Greek-American. However, most of all I am an American, cuz I was born here. My Dad is from Greece. Why can't we just all quit the labeling and be Americans? Sure.. it's cool to have a heritage, and to take pride in it.. but when it overrides common sense and you think you have rights over and above BECAUSE of that heritage, that's wrong.
Sure there's plenty of white only organizations like the KKK, the Aryan Brotherhood.. but they are organizations that are always in the spotlight and always are violent and get a lot of attention. Sure other races don't wanna join them, cuz they can't. I don't wanna join em either. However, I do think that if some white people want their own organization that glorifies their own race, withOUT putting down other races, then that should be their right, without people demonizing them. What does that prove? I think it sucks that the golf club in Augusta Georgia wants to have an all male golf club and there's a lady that wants them to let females in. Why should they? Then that only infringes on their rights as humans making their own choices.. and makes it harder for females to have their own socieities. Each culture has a right to its own identity.. but when it all comes down to it.. we're all just human Americans..
Awww.. c'mon stinky .. what black person wants to sing country music besides Charlie Pride??? ehheeheh.. that's not fair. There isn't very many white rap artists.. does that mean it's exclusive? No.. but I bet if they were good enough, like Charlie Pride is, they'd get their place.. LOL
Country Girl Being that I'm "Black", "Colored", "African-American", "Negro", etc. I suppose I should comment on this thread... but where should I begin?
First of all, Country Girl, your post appears to take the stance that ALL Black people seek reparations. In reality (a place you should visit), most Blacks aren't out to get reparations for several obvious reasons: 1) We don't blame White Americans now living for what happened, they weren't there, 2) We also weren't slaves, 3) We pay taxes too so any reparations could possibly be coming out of our own pockets, and 4) We wouldn't get much money anyway
You said:
Does anybody think how it was for a Mother to lose her children to a battle fighting for the rights of someone she considered less than an equal? What they fought for.. what they all believed in.. was the right for all men to be equal. No shame can be found in that.
I think that someone already brought this out but the Civil War wasn't completely about equal rights for slaves. A lot of it was about the Confederacy rejoining The Union (money, power). The slavery/equality issue was merely a noble platform to stand on.
How can African Americans ask for reparation when their lot has become better? Based on the history of civil rights, their lot is way better/ Through the deaths of many people that believed in equal rights as Abe Lincoln expressed it, or as Martin Luther King expressed it, their lot in life is better.. and things are so much more equal.
-The reason that SOME not ALL Blacks want reparations is because 1) The slaves were promised 40 acres and a mule which they never received and 2) in some ways many Blacks still suffer. If you need me to elaborate I can.
-Abe Lincoln owned slaves
-Things are still not equal. Actually far from it if you actually do some research.
How can people classify themselves as African Americans when they werent BORN in Africa, nor do they have a contact with Africa. They are Americans, cuz they were born here.
Umm, I know many people that call themselves Asian-American, Hispanic-American, Italian-American, and guess what? They were born here too! Many people have pride in their heritage. My husband is Franco-American and proud of it!
They continue to SEGREGATE themselves by calling themselves other than American. How can they expect to progress if they keep bringing attention to their differences? They keep saying that America has to pay attention to their differences, celebrate those differences, yet they keep asking America to integrate with them. You either want one or the other. Its okay if you want black colleges, black channels BET, black Ms. America pageants.. but then dont turn around and ask people to IGNORE their caucasion differences, and get upset cuz people want to have Ms. White America pageants, white only clubs, things like that.
Honey, when Ms. Black America Pageants started there was no place for Blacks in the other pageants, so now it's sort of a tradition, and not a big deal. And I don't think I've ever heard a Black person say they that we should IGNORE caucasian differences, where are you getting this? Plus, there are plenty of white-only organizations (Aryans Nations, KKK, etc), we don't wanna join those.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Do you know how UPSET the NAACP would be if white people formed a union and had a Ms. White USA? How upset people would be if someone formed a WHITE ONLY channel? Well, think about it like that.
A White only channel. . .how about CMT (Country Music Television) hahaha
Were all Americans, those of us that were born here. I like the fact that some of us continue to bring our traditions and cultures to the fore, but for the most part.. we are AMERICANS.. and we are all the same.. and we all are lucky to live here and we should be proud.. and should be become one.. AMERICANS.
Umm, even people that were not born here are Americans too silly girl. Did you know that a person can be born in Germany, but become a citizen by taking an oath? They too are Americans (German-American).
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StinkyPantz
CG-
The reason I said that your post appears to be a certain way (ALL black seek reparations) is because you used all inclusive words like "they". They, who? Blacks? All Blacks? You didn't say some Black groups, you said "they". I
really had a problem with this comment:
They continue to SEGREGATE themselves by calling themselves other than American.
I call myself American. . not African. But my lineage points to Africa, so how am I "segregating" myself by being call African-American. Is my husband "segregating" himself be saying he's Franco-American, or does it only apply to Black people?
I still disagree about your view of the reasons behind the Civil War. The Union saw that due to unlimited free labor, the Confederacy's power was already strong, and growing. So how could they weaken the Confederacy? Take away slave labor. It wasn't a noble cause (all men are equal so free the slaves), it was about money and power (slaves = power). Afterall, Northerners too had slaves so how is it that they were fighting to "free" people when they still kept people in chains? Also, the Emancipation Proclamation was merely a piece of paper that sounded good but had little affect. Abraham Lincoln even had slaves.
Also, if your father was promised money and he chooses not to recieve it, then that seems almost silly to me. He could use the money to provide a college education for his grandchildren. Of course I don't know the whole situation.
Edited by - StinkyPantz on 20 January 2003 18:47:49
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sableindian
My family didnt own slaves. My Mothers family came from Sweden after the Civil War and they fought hard to have their homestead on the hard, cold prairie. They worked the land themselves, sometimes fighting blistering snowstorms to stay alive. My Fathers family came here in 1950 from Greece. They were given asylum because the Nazis destroyed their farm.
That's great! Now, after they did all that hard work, did anyone get their farm burned down? How many sons got lynched? Any body jailed or killed for looking at a Black, Native or hispanic woman? How many of your relatives were given syphillis, just for the heck of it? When was the last time someone told your ancestor that they were not allowed to read or get an education.
And if there were Blacks in their state, how many did they defend? Or hire? Of help? Yet, during slavery, Blacks, as slaves, helped the Irish and Native people.
Blacks were here before your ancestors. And guess what, they too worked the land in the blistering cold. The south was not the only place that owned slaves.
Your family was fortunate to have gotten asylum from the Nazis. Many Germans were not given that asylum. Your family is fortunate to not have come to America and later be put into concentration camps. You are a very fortunate little country girl.
As far as reperations are concerned there will never be enough money for the blood lost by many Americans, whether Indiginous Americans, Jews, Muslims or Christians with African ancestry. Give them what was stolen from them. Land, education, jobs and dignity. You can have the money. Just make sure that once they get it, it's not taken away by jailing innocent men, burning or steeling property, not hiring, etc.
I think when all people are freely able to be the best they can be. Everyone will have freedom. Freedom from fear. All will feel safe when all are educated and productive members of society. Why would you want to see anyone down, if they would possibly be your neighbor, workmate, or just a person you may possibly pass on the street. There is always a potential altercation. Even for country folk.
My idea is let the families have a free college education. For at least 3 generations. That way they can earn their own money. I suggest they do what they did in the early 1900s in Georgia, Oklahoma, California, etc. Own their own property and own their own businesses. This time, let's not burn them down. Ok?
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sableindian
I would like to see a little more truth in history and in the media. In order for country girl to talk about the things her family did makes it clear that she did not think Blacks did these things. And if she didn't, it is not her fault. It is the historians and the media that give a distorted image. How many Whites, or Blacks for that matter know that slaves were captured from Africa who either worshipped Jesus, recognized Jesus as the Messiah or knew Jesus as a prophet. I'm talking Jews, Christians and Muslims.
How many know that Blacks fought in wars against Americans as Indiginous people, Canadians and British? How many know that Haitians were asked to come and help fight in the Revolutionary War as soldiers? Blacks who were free were stolen from their homes and sold into slavery. Blacks were trail blazers and heros. Intelligent and some well educated before slavery.
Some good reading is the history of the AME church. 100 Years of Lynchings by Ralph Ginzberg. (Something no other race in America had to face before or after slavery!)
And of course, there was a Black History BEFORE America existed!
And what's up with the seperation of Egypt and Africa in museums. LOL I just can't get over that.
Maybe we should seperate the conquered South and the Conquerers in museums. (DUH) See how stupid that sounds. But just as there are old folks in the WTBS who are set in their ways, this country is set in their ways about race. One great example is how Egypt, although on the continent of Africa, is seperated from the continent.
Remember the O'Jays song about Love Train? "All of you brothers over in Africa, tell all the folks in Israel and Egypt too" And by the way, older maps with the Atlantic Ocean as the Ethiopic Ocean, before the 19th century, had Israel in Africa.
If anybody needs any scholarship. "E" me.
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heathen
Bigboi- I assure you that is not my point of view about the confederacy nor have I ever participated in the march of the klan or any other march so please do not compare me to those idiots .I do come from northern parts and I am not a southerner . I was just making a point that the government is biased about who can be proud of skin color and who can use words that denote skin color in there societies or private enterprises. I think this whole reparations thing was started by lewis farakaun a man I happen to despise not because of his color but his attitude and political agenda . It does look like after all the efforts to put the differences and problems from the past behind us as a nation we have to deal with crack pots who only want to serve their own interests .
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jst_me
I find it amazing that people can say ..."I think people should celebrate their differences" and then say "it isnt right that there are black only this or that".
I also find it interesting that most people who say those sweeping generalized comments never attend so-called black-only (or hispanic only or indian only) events. They are open to everyone, and usually everyone is welcome.
If your skin is light, you are in a club that you do not even realize that you belong to. That is why people of color have had to create their own things....to have a place of peace to be who they are. Not all of us want to be assimilated into some bland version of what an American is supposed to be. Some of us want to retain our heritage.
And sister cry me a river about what your family-come-lately was promised. My family has lived on this continent for thousands of years, my people were promised things that were supposed to last as long as the rivers flowed, the grass grew, etc etc. That land your family was promised was stolen. If you are southern, there is a good chance you live on land that belonged to my ancestors. How much do you know about the history of the lands that your feet are planted on now?
Race and class matter. Just because it is uncomfortable to hear about the past, and how our country was founded does not mean that we should not discuss it. We need to open a real dialogue about the economic and social consequences that ou nation faces today that are a direct result of our shared past, as it is the only way to really improve things.
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jelly
Hmmm, interesting subject.
MY VIEW:
To be honest, I have no problem with black only events or cable channels. If people want to do that and there is a market for it so be it, sometimes I even watch a little BET when the music videos are on. As far as reparations however I have to say no way, when the IRS shows up at my door looking for money for a crime I didnt commit is the day I stop paying taxes. That being said, things in America are still not equal and I think that we must realistically address the issue.THE PROBLEM:
The inequality currently, in my opinion, is not institutional like it was 40 years ago. If you are a black man in America with the right skills, you will go far. What does exist in the black community is a type of economic disparity that must be addressed. The problem in the black community comes from two sources. The first is the poorly funded school systems that a large number of minorities attend. Schools in California get their funding based on the property taxes of the area, basically the more expensive the houses the more money per student. So rich neighborhoods have very well financed schools where poor ones are broke. The bad school leads to children that cannot compete educationally with kids form the suburbs, who tend to be white, so they end up stuck in the same neighborhood they grew up in and send their own kids to poor under-funded schools. A type of cyclical poverty. The second source of the economic disparity, that might offend some people, is the black subculture. Asians faced many of the same issues that the black community did, now the have economic parity with whites. I think the African American community does need to look at itself and make some changes. Things like education need to be stressed more, and developing a fixation on the mythical white privilege really probably doesnt help the African American community either; it just gives some people an excuse for failure.THE SOLUTION:
The solution is a two-step solution. First, fix the schools, all schools should receive equal funding based on the number on students not their fathers income. Also, alternative solutions like vouchers for private schools should be pursued. Second, and more difficult, is the African American community would benefit from stressing education, and looking up to successful black men who are not sports stars. The second solution is going to have to come from within the Black community itself. -
sableindian
Heathen,
Well there is one thing for sure....many people who are in association, Black, White or other, with JWs know very little about Black history.
For instance, to quote you" Bigboi- .... I think this whole reparations thing was started by lewis farakaun a man I happen to despise not because of his color but his attitude and political agenda . It does look like after all the efforts to put the differences and problems from the past behind us as a nation we have to deal with crack pots who only want to serve their own interests ."
Well, at least you said you think...but here is a bit of history that you may not be aware of.
"Bishop Henry Turner of the African Methodist-Episcopal Church and the International Emigration Society in Atlanta, Georgia was probably the first African-American to demand reparations from the federal government. Bishop Turner was attempting to raise money to send blacks back to Africa. He estimated that America, in 1896, owed approximately four million African-Americans $50 billion in back wages. For re-settlement purposes however, he only sought $500 million from Washington. It is believed he received not a penny. Bishop Henry McNeil Turner was elected bishop of the African Methodist Church in 1880."