Did Jesus Die on a Cross or Stake

by Tommy Boy 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Tommy Boy

  I have been research the topic of how Christ died and have read many articles (most interesting of them was at the URL http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/cross.htm) which indicate that he died on a cross, so I contacted the WT and they told me to look at Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, and this is what I found.

  Topic: Cross, Crucify

  <A-1,Noun,4716,stauros>
  denotes, primarily, "an upright pale or stake." On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, "to fasten to a stake or pale," are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed "cross." The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient , and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including . By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the "cross" of Christ.

  As for the Chi, or X, which Constantine declared he had seen in a vision leading him to champion the Christian faith, that letter was the initial of the word "Christ" and had nothing to do with "the Cross" (for xulon, "a timber beam, a tree," as used for the stauros, see under TREE).

  The method of execution was borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the Phoenicians. The stauros denotes (a) "the cross, or stake itself," e.g., Matt. 27:32; (b) "the crucifixion suffered," e.g., 1 Cor. ,18, where "the word of the cross," RV, stands for the Gospel; Gal. , where crucifixion is metaphorically used of the renunciation of the world, that characterizes the true Christian life; Gal. ,14; Eph. ; Phil. .

  The judicial custom by which the condemned person carried his stake to the place of execution, was applied by the Lord to those sufferings by which His faithful followers were to express their fellowship with Him, e.g., Matt. 10:38.

  <B-1,Verb,4717,stauroo>
  signifies (a) "the act of crucifixion," e.g., Matt. ; (b) metaphorically, "the putting off of the flesh with its passions and lusts," a condition fulfilled in the case of those who are "of Christ Jesus," Gal. , RV; so of the relationship between the believer and the world, Gal. .

  <B-2,Verb,4957,sustauroo>
  "to crucify with" (su, "for," sun, "with"), is used (a) of actual "crucifixion" in company with another, Matt. 27:44; Mark ; John (b) metaphorically, of spiritual identification with Christ in His death, Rom. 6:6; Gal. .

  <B-3,Verb,388,anastauroo>
  (ana, again) is used in Heb. 6:6 of Hebrew apostates, who as merely nominal Christians, in turning back to Judaism, were thereby virtually guilty of "crucifying" Christ again.

  <B-4,Verb,4362,prospegnumi>
  "to fix or fasten to anything" (pros, "to," pegnumi, "to fix"), is used of the "crucifixion" of Christ, Acts .
• 

  rebel

  Hi Tommy Boy and welcome.

  I often wondered about this cross/stake thing. But, when you really think about it, what does it really matter? If you believe the Bible, and believe that Jesus was God's Son and he was sent to give his life as a sacrifice, does it make one ounce of difference whether he died on a cross or a stake? What does it matter whether he was crucified, drowned, beheaded, strangled, stoned etc etc? The fact is, he died and was resurrected - that's if you believe the Bible account. I think the JWs make too big an issue out of this stake business. Personally, I couldn't care less how he died.

  There are many on this board that don't believe the Bible at all. I am not too sure and am doing a lot of research myself. I am open to debate and love to hear other people's views, but I don't really think the manner of Christ's death is that important. I know there is a scripture in the OT somewhere that says he will be hung up and pierced (I think - could be wrong - my knowledge of scriptures is appalling!)

  Just my thoughts.

  xxR
• 

  Gizmo

  Tommy Boy Hi Welcome,

  First of all if you are a true christian, this issue wouldn't make any possible difference to you, the important thing is that Jesus died as a ransom sacrifice NOT HOW he died.

  As far as the JWs go, I personally believe one fine beautiful morning, Ol Judge Rutherford (I think it was He at the time) woke up from a pretty heavy nights drinking and was so hungover he decided he was going to make up a new papal Bull for the congregations.

  He decided to make up a story, and see how far he could push it, so he thought and he thought and decided The Stake vs The Cross was a goody. So he went with it.

  Soon it was all typed out and ready for print. A Brand New issue of the Watchtower declared that NEW LIGHT had been found that Jesus in fact was not crucified as they had earlier thought NO, that he was in fact Staked! Yep STAKED!

  And this was such important new light that from now on anyone claiming to be a true christian and a member of the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, found still believing Jesus was crucified, would be in serious trouble. After all this came directly from the source Himself and down to the Fatitful Slave!

  Well time went by and people soon started adjusting to this NEW LIGHT! The OL judge went to bed each night mostly sozzled, thinking how funny it was that he managed to convince everyone that Jesus wasn't crucified at all, and thought "Just goes to show how gullible people can be...hehehehe, all indications in history point to Jesus dying on a cross, but I managed to convince these SHEEP otherwise woooohoooo what fun."

  "Now what other Papal Bull can I come up with oooh oooh I know......"

  Soon a new bright light shone above his head, the rest is History!

  here is a link that has discussed this issue before in this Forum, there are many explanations and viewpoints in there.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=20279&site=3

  So what do you believe? And does it matter?

  Edited by - Gizmo on 21 January 2003 8:37:58
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Tommy Boy,

  So is it your contention, as it is with the Society, that since pagans used the symbol of the cross that Jesus must have been crucified on an upright stake? A simple upright stake is a phallic symbol also of pagan orgin.

  Tommy, Jesus COULD have been executed on a simple upright stake, but the most COMMON form of crucifixion was on the "T" shaped cross.
• 

  gumby

  Hi Tommy and welcome.

  The society quotes from first century Josephus all the time.

  When Jerusalem was devastated in 70 ce; Josephus wrote about it. Over a million Jews dies in the seige while about 97,000 were taken captive. How did Josephus describe this event?

  He said there was not enough room for the crosses to be stored and also not enough crosses to go around. He spoke of crucifiction. I wonder why the society didn't tell you what they have quoted before? Why didn't they say "it doesn't matter what he died on".....like they said in an article before.

  They downgrade the cross as the means used, yet say it doesn't matter what he died on.

  Jesus also had a sign hung ABOVE his head. It would be hard to accomodate a sign above your head with your arms and hands in the way.

  Gumby
• 

  MegaDude

  Tommy,

  I would recommend you consult a variety of Bible dictionaries or sources if you're really interested in this topic other than Free Minds and Vine's and the Watchtower.

  The original Watchtower view, put forth by Russell, was that the Scriptures and evidence indicated Jesus died on a cross.

  Rutherford, the Society's second president, always looking for scant evidence to turn into "new" doctrine to stroke his own ego, came up with this silly doctrine of the stake.

  The Watchtower is dishonest in saying there is no evidence Jesus died on a cross.

  The word interpreted by the Watchtower as "stake" can also be used to mean more complex forms than just an upright pale.

  The scriptures indicate a proclamation was nailed above Jesus' head, not his hands. Also, that thieves were crucified, one at his left hand and one on his right hand, thus indicating a cross. Thomas spoke of a pleurality of nails used on Jesus' hands. Not a single nail.

  The Watchtower could care less if they have the truth on the matter or not on what Jesus died, not that it matters one iota. They've already said way too much about it and can't change their stance on it without looking foolish, so like other of their false doctrines, they're going to stick with it for appearance's sake.
• 

  Sargon

  Gumby, I'm curious, do know what word Josephus actually used since cross would be it's English translation.
• 

  Yerusalyim

  Sargon,

  A more important question is what word the greeks and romans would have used for the cruciform cross IF starous and xylon meant ONLY or Uniquely an upright stake.
• 

  Gerard

  The Neo-Watchtower Apologists frame their arguments in such a manner (intentionally or not) that it appears that someone could arrive at the same belief as official Watchtower doctrine through independent study. But is that possible? Is it possible to come to what the Watchtower calls "the truth" independently of the publications produced by the Watchtower? To ask it another way, from the Watchtower's official position, can the study of New Testament Greek grammar and syntax bring someone's beliefs in line with existing Watchtower doctrine? After examining several Watchtower publications, it would appear that it would be impossible for a person studying the Greek New Testament apart from Watchtower helps to come up with a faith that matches the Watchtower's "truth".
• 

  aluminutty

  Jesus died on a chicken breast.