Did Jesus Die on a Cross or Stake

by Tommy Boy 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  onacruse

  Sargon, gumby:

  From Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, chapter 3, section 3 (bold added):

  http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0146&query=whiston%20chapter%3D%23231&layout=&loc=18.26

  Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

  Josephus used the Greek stauros here translated "cross." (See website above for original language texts)

  Once again the WTS displays their biased and unscholarly techniques.

  Craig
• 

  jgnat

  The best paper I have read on the subject was posted on this site by Leoalia:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=36340&site=3

  Well worth the read.

  The Watchtower could care less if they have the truth on the matter or not on what Jesus died, not that it matters one iota. They've already said way too much about it and can't change their stance on it without looking foolish, so like other of their false doctrines, they're going to stick with it for appearance's sake.

  So very true Megadude. Check to see how the WT apologists attacked Leoalia's work.

  Edited by - jgnat on 21 January 2003 14:59:21
• 

  gumby

  Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

  Thanks for the input onacruse. Josephus talked about in many other refrences than this. Actually the refrence above is agreed on by many that this was NOT a quote from Josephus as the writing styles differ from his and it is believed to be an interpolation of his writings. It was believed to have been forged by literalist christians who saw jesus as a historical figure ....rather than a mythical savior as most saw him as at that time but were later exterminated by the christians.

  There have also been excavations of crosses.....hundreds in that area. Other church fathers mentioned the term.

  There is more evidence to believe it was a cross type instument ....than a simple upright stake.

  The entire problem with this whole discussion is this.

  You would be considered an Apostate traitor in the eyes of Jehovah's Witnesses if after you re-searched and were convinced that this was a cross and were adament about it and would not accept the Watchtowers definition of a stake .......and you voiced your opinion or made it known you believed different........you would become like the rest of us Apostate, white trailor trash, heathen , scumbags, that we all are. So you MUST believe it was a stake!
• 

  onacruse

  gumby: Thanks for the catch! That passage is the only one indexed in my hard copy of Whiston's translation; too bad it's a tainted source. At that website I mentioned above the search engine found the following occurrences of "cross(es)" in Josephus:

  1. Antiquities of the Jews , book 11, section 8
     But my will is, that those who disobey these injunctions, and make them void, shall be hung upon a cross, and their substance brought into the king's treasury. (5.35)
  2. Antiquities of the Jews , book 18, section 63
     And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. (4.47)
  3. Antiquities of the Jews , book 11, section 207
     This troubled the king; but he discovered the truth, and hanged the eunuchs upon a cross, while at that time he gave no reward to Mordecai, who had been the occasion of his preservation. (3.05)
  4. Antiquities of the Jews , book 11, section 97
     He also ordained that they should assist them in the work; and that they should pay to the Jews, out of the tribute of the country where they were governors, on account of the sacrifices, bulls, and rams, and lambs, and kids of the goats, and fine flour, and oil, and wine, and all other things that the priests should suggest to them; and that they should pray for the preservation of the king, and of the Persians; and that for such as transgressed any of these orders thus sent to them, he commanded that they should be caught, and hung upon a cross, and their substance confiscated to the king's use. (2.97)
  5. The Wars of the Jews , book 3, section 213
     This ram is slung in the air by ropes passing over its middle, and is hung like the balance in a pair of scales from another beam, and braced by strong beams that pass on both sides of it, in the nature of a cross. (2.96)
  6. The Wars of the Jews , book 7, section 190
     Nor did he fail of his hope; for he commanded them to set up a cross, as if he were just going to hang Eleazar upon it immediately; the sight of this occasioned a sore grief among those that were in the citadel, and they groaned vehemently, and cried out that they could not bear to see him thus destroyed. (2.67)
  7. The Wars of the Jews , book 2, section 305
     And what made this calamity the heavier was this new method of Roman barbarity; for Florus ventured then to do what no one had done before, that is, to have men of the equestrian order whipped and nailed to the cross before his tribunal; who, although they were by birth Jews, yet were they of Roman dignity notwithstanding. (1.15)
  8. The Wars of the Jews , book 5, section 446
     So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies. (5.19)
  9. Antiquities of the Jews , book 12, section 248
     They also strangled those women and their sons whom they had circumcised, as the king had appointed, hanging their sons about their necks as they were upon the crosses. (4.62)
  10. The Wars of the Jews , book 1, section 96
      Nay, his rage was grown so extravagant, that his barbarity proceeded to the degree of impiety; for when he had ordered eight hundred to be hung upon crosses in the midst of the city, he had the throats of their wives and children cut before their eyes; and these executions he saw as he was drinking and lying down with his concubines. (3.13)
  11. Antiquities of the Jews , book 6, section 374
      On the next day, when the Philistines came to strip their enemies that were slain, they got the bodies of Saul and of his sons, and stripped them, and cut off their heads; and they sent messengers all about their country, to acquaint them that their enemies were fallen; and they dedicated their armor in the temple of Astarte, but hung their bodies on crosses at the walls of the city Bethshun, which is now called Scythepolls. (1.75)

  I had no idea that Josephus referred so many times to "cross(es)." I haven't finished checking all these passages for the original language term translated as "cross."

  jgnat: This may be covered in Leoalia's paper, but I can't get that file to open

  Craig

  PS: I agree that "stake" or "cross" makes no difference insofar as the Biblical meaning of the sacrifice is concerned. I do, however, think it's relevant insofar as the WTS's misrepresentation of the historical evidence is concerned.

  Edited by - onacruse on 21 January 2003 22:26:47
• 

  seedy3

  Actually, I find it hard to beleive that questioning if it was a cross or a steak errr stake would make for a hill of beans for salvation for a Christian.

  However on the note about it being a pagan symbol it is interesting to note that the cross was not used a a christian symbol until about or soon after the time of Constentine. The WTS and many others try to tie the cross into the God Tamuz and rightly so, but the way it really crept into christian symbolism was through the Cult of Mithras that was booming during the first few centuries of the new era.

  When Constentine let the christians practce in the open a clergy system was established and one thing needed to show the clergy from lay people. They took the idea from the clergy of Mithras. The mithras Clergy wore robes with a long sword on the front draped down twords the sides of the robe. Interestingly enough it looked much like the robes used today in the orthadox churches with the VERY long cross in the same position.

  Just an interesting note

  Seedy
• 

  KGB

  I have watched some programs on the Discovery channel and TLC chanel about archeaolgist that have indeed found items that prove his death was on a cross. They have also done test with live human bodies and corpses to see how long they could survive either there hands above there heads and to there sides. Studies say that if a man was hanging in a deathly way with his hands above his head that in just 6 to 9 minutes the lungs begin to break down and weaken and within 15 - 20 minutes he suffocates. The scriptures make it to be that he was alive for several hours while suffering on the cross. Now I am not a JW by far but I also believe it does not matter how he died but that he did die for the biblical purposes presented in scripture.
• 

  Joker10

  STAKE
• 

  OUTLAW

  If someone nailed your ass to a tree,would you care what shape it was?...OUTLAW
• 

  lv4fer

  The poles or stakes were already in the ground. It was the cross beam that the person carried and the were then nailed to it which was then nailed to the pole or stake that was in the ground already. I really don't think it is an important issue, I'm glad he died for me and that is that. I think it is interesting that JW's react to the cross like a vampire does. They reject it. I think even if it was pagan at one time, now it is a sign of Christianity. If you see a person wearing a cross it usuall makes you think oh, they are a Christian. So it is kind of an identifying mark, just as the star David represents a Jew.
• 

  jgnat

  Craig, I opened the link just fine. Do you have Acrobat Reader? It is free.

  http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/