The Third Alternative (page 4)

Introspection

Opps, I didn't realize Mitchell took out the number five there.. (yet another sign he doesn't understand/appreciate the thoughts, the five is significant) So just to clarify, I was talking about the second quote about colors blinding the eye, etc..

siegswife

Introspection, It says at the beginning that he took some liberties. His opinion is that the tao is open to that sort of thing. This is the only translation I have, courtesy of a friend who's an 8th grade English teacher. He got some tiny little tao's to use in his class and gave an extra one to me.

It's a pretty cool book.

Introspection

Siegs I'm glad you got a copy. The thing is though, by that same reasoning that it is open to interpretation, you first of all need something to interpret - it makes sense for you to see that thing first then have your own interpretation, rather than reading someone else's interpretation of it. Basically, what it amounts to is he is saying "here, read what I think of it."

Anyways.. This is actually kind of interesting in terms of what we've been talking about, judging and interpreting. There is a quality of being closed when you judge, interpret and conclude - but being open is just open. Of course, being open includes the possibility of being closed, but that's sort of like saying being free to be under mind control..

outoftheorg

Its me again Sidd.

Well I think I understand somewhat at least what you are presenting. I am having dificulty putting what I think into words.

Would I be moving in the direction of the third alternative if I dealt with something this way?

A good friend dies due to a lightning strike. I observe the situation and FEEL that it is not a situation of right or wrong, IT JUST IS. Then I expand that kind of acceptance to other incidents in life.

Observe what takes place in life and reserve judgement and watch for another understanding.

Are you saying that using this kind of mental exercise would for example, enable one to believe in the existance of God with out any analitical or other proof. Simply the very strong feeling of knowing?

Outoftheorg

Introspection

Hi Out,

Are you saying that using this kind of mental exercise would for example, enable one to believe in the existance of God with out any analitical or other proof. Simply the very strong feeling of knowing?

If you don't mind I'd like to address this, because I think Siddha and I are basically coming from the same place. First of all, it is not an exercise, because exercise would denote effort, and you're not doing anything, you're just taking in how things are, as it is. And not to pick apart the words you're using because as you acknowledged, we are all limited by them - but "enable one to believe" is a rather funny thing to say, wouldn't you say? Besides, believe is just believing, seeing is just seeing - and that's all you're doing. The other part of this is God. It has to be recognized, first of all that God, to most people is just a mental construct, as such it is in the same order of things as all other thoughts and concepts. If you are in fact going to just see what is, what actually exists, then you must forget that thought, or redefine it - but the best way to do that is to just drop your preconceived notions or see that it is just an idea. Most people have this backwards - they project reality with their concepts of God, whereas it should be that reality tells you what God is, and of course its just the word we use to refer to it. Feeling is sort of it, but it's not even that - because if you feel something that still denotes that it is an internal reaction to something else, but all this also points to that it's one or not separate, and also there is a time delay in sensing something and having a feeling arise in you - this stuff is the present moment in time, just right now.

Edited by - Introspection on 24 January 2003 0:52:5

Siddhashunyata

Introspection , to some the manifestation of suffering motivates teaching and teaching with seriousness. Buddah taught , not for himself but for those seeking an end to suffering. You know these things and honestly , I'm glad you are happy. To me the truth about existence is precious and ignorance is the enemy. While most of my moments are lighthearted moments, it is difficult for me to treat this subject lightly. This is not a criticism because I know there are different approaches to this. Its just that for me the path has been a serious one. While it can be viewed as a game , to me it would be a better game if one were able to choose to play or not. Because of ignorance one must play. One must suffer.

The option of direct knowing , and enlightment, has become a mainstream toy. The promises are the same as the promises of mainstream religion ie......Your Ego self can be nurtured to attain immortality. The truth of existence has been cheapened and is offered like snake oil. Money is being made and a market is steadily cultivated. Personalities are famous because they sell an "easy" path.

As Jehovah's Witnesses we were robbed of a truly Spiritual life. Road blocks were set up to stop the transformation process. We suffered while trying to follow an inner guide that would have led to a release from this feeling of separation. Our ego was being stregthened by conforming to WT practice. Now we are out and now we can take up the task of finding out what is going with ourselves. And one thing that's going on is suffering.

From the beginning I have been trying to stimulate discussion among posters. It is difficult as you know. I have felt all along that a direct approach was best, one that touched on the sources of the pain such as the loss of Belief. My objective was to help someone see that there is another way.

Siddhashunyata

Introspection, outoftheorg ; my post was done without seeing your last two posts. Just wanted to clear that up so there's no misunderstanding.

Siddhashunyata

outoftheorg...... To add to Introspection's post. When that friend died from lightning, You would naturally feel the feelings of being human . However you would be aware of these and not attach to them and not deny them. They are real but not permanent. By not attaching, by not attaching you will not be carried away by thoughts, you will continue to be in the moment and a different kind of understanding becomes operative.

By practicing this you will experience a shift to participation in " what is", with understanding. The understanding will be direct, it will not be slow as with the thinking process, you will not be looking at things through mental symbols, you will be looking at them directly with understanding. The understanding process will "feel" different and that feeling has been viewed as having a relationship with God. Note this enigmatic statement by St. Francis:

" What You Are Looking For Is What Is Looking."

outoftheorg

Sidd/Intro

I believe I do understand what Sidd was offering. I can see where this would be an interesting approach to life and may be a help in centering a persons life on something other than an outside influence such as cults or religions.

In some respect I find myself drifting in this direction mostly on my own and not from the study or acceptance of Buda or other mystic teachings.

I don't know if you view Buda's teachings as mystic. That is my take on it.

I feel the need to be cautious in the examination of mystic beliefs. I believe the wbts teaching that the gb or fds being led by God is another mystic teaching and missused to harm people.

On the other hand I believe that the human mind is capable of far more than than we are aware of. The possible connection between the mind and sources of guidence and help would not surprise me.

I appreciate and thank you both for this interchange of information.

I view the statement by St Francis as "What you are looking for, is that part of you that is looking".

Outoftheorg

Satanus

Siddhashunyata

What You Are Looking For Is What Is Looking.

I meditate w this goal, at times. I try to find the real me, my true desires. Have you observed the one who looks? Does it exist? Is it the same as 'god'? Sorry if this is off topic, but these are questions that i have been wondering about.

SS

The Third Alternative

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