Michael the Archangel

by UnDisfellowshipped 159 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped
    Is Jesus Christ the same Person as Michael the Archangel [Chief Angel], as the Watchtower Society teaches?

    What does the Bible say?

    Here are all of the Scriptures that mention Michael the Archangel:

    Daniel 10:13: But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

    Notice: That Verse says that Michael is "one of the chief princes", which must mean that there are more than one "chief prince" like Michael is.

    Daniel 10:21: But I will tell you that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none who holds with me against these, but Michael your prince."

    Daniel 12:1: "At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who shall be found written in the Book.

    Notice: That Verse shows that Michael is the angel who "stands up" for the Jews. In other words, the angel who is assigned to protecting and helping faithful Israelites.

    Jude 1:9: But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the Devil and arguing about the body of Moses, did not dare bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, "May the Lord rebuke you!"

    Notice: That Verse shows that Michael did not have the authority to rebuke Satan the Devil, but instead Michael said "May the Lord rebuke you!".

    Jesus Christ, the Lord of Heaven and Earth, while on Earth (after He had "emptied Himself" of glory, honor, and power), rebuked Satan and the demons several times, so if Jesus is Michael, why would He have LESS authority to rebuke Satan in Heaven than on Earth?

    Jesus while on Earth, prayed to the Father and asked that the Father restore the glory to Jesus that He had while in Heaven, so it seems obvious to me that Jesus had MORE authority while in Heaven, than on Earth.

    Also, in Jude 1:4, it says that Jesus Christ is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler and Master". Would the Bible say that a created angel, who did not even have the authority to rebuke a fallen angel in Heaven, is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler"?

    Revelation 12:7: There was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels made war on the Dragon. The Dragon and his angels made war.
    Revelation 12:8: They didn't prevail, neither was a place found for him any more in Heaven.
    Revelation 12:9: The Great Dragon was thrown down, the Old Serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, the Deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the Earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

    1st Thessalonians 4:16: For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
    1st Thessalonians 4:17: then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

    Notice: The Watchtower Society likes to use that Verse to "prove" that Jesus is Michael.

    The Watchtower claims that since Jesus will descend from Heaven "with the voice of the archangel", it must mean that Jesus is the archangel!

    My response is: Jesus will also descend with "a shout" and "God's trumpet". Does that mean that Jesus is a shout? Does that mean that Jesus is a trumpet?

    Also, if that Verse was saying that Jesus was Michael, why didn't it read like this:

    "For the Lord Himself, the archangel, will descend from Heaven with a shout, with His voice, and with God's trumpet."

    Hebrews 1:1: God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the Prophets at many times and in various ways,
    Hebrews 1:2: has at the end of these days spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.
    Hebrews 1:3: His Son is the Radiance of His Glory, the Very Image of His Substance, and upholding all things by the Word of His Power, when He had by Himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty On High;
    Hebrews 1:4: having become so much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent Name than they have.
    Hebrews 1:5: For to which of the angels did He say at any time, "You are My Son, Today have I become your Father?" and again, "I will be to Him a Father, And He will be to Me a Son?"
    Hebrews 1:6: Again, when He brings in the Firstborn into the world He says, "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
    Hebrews 1:7: Of the angels He says, "Who makes His angels winds, And His servants a flame of fire."
    Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
    Hebrews 1:9: You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your fellows."
    Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord [Yahweh in the Old Testament], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.
    Hebrews 1:11: They will perish, but You continue. They all will grow old like a garment does.
    Hebrews 1:12: As a mantle You will roll them up, And they will be changed; But You are the same. Your years will not fail."
    Hebrews 1:13: But of which of the angels has He said at any time, "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Your enemies the footstool of Your feet?"
    Hebrews 1:14: Aren't they all ministering spirits, sent out to do service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

    Some More of My Comments:

    Michael is called "One of the Chief Princes".

    Jesus Christ is called KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS.

    Jesus Christ is called the Only-Begotten and Unique Son of the Father, who is in the Bosom of the Father.

    In Hebrews Chapter 1 God The Father called Jesus Christ "God" and "Lord" ("Yahweh" in the Old Testament Scripture which was quoted by Paul).

    In Hebrews Chapter 1, God The Father said that Jesus Christ created Heaven and Earth.

    In Hebrews Chapter 1, God The Father commands all angels to worship Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews Chapter 1 says that God The Father never said to any angel the following statements:

    "You are My Son, Today have I become your Father?"

    "I will be to Him a Father, And He will be to Me a Son?"

    "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Your enemies the footstool of Your feet?"

    So, what do YOU think -- is Jesus Christ Michael?

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 23 January 2003 23:41:59

  • artful
    artful

    Very well summed up UD! I am going to copy this one to my files.

    I agree with you that Jesus is certainly not Michael the archangel...
    The Scripture in Rev 12 speaks of the angel Michael doing battle with Satan after Jesus had sat down at God's right hand. Surely, Jesus having ascended to the throne as "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" would not be refered to as a lowly angel. And of course as you point out, the scriptures in Hebrews backs this up: Heb 1:5 says "For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"?

    As with many of the WTS teachings, I fail to see any reason for them to propagate this lie...of what value is it to insist that Jesus is Michael?

    Cheers
    Artful

    Edited by - artful on 23 January 2003 11:1:57

  • shera
    shera

    Good stuff

  • acsot
    acsot

    Thank you for this post! I have copied this info and will keep it in my "ammunitions" file.

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    I personally believe that when the Bible refers to Michael that it is referring to Jesus. The WTS did not come up with this, for this was around far before the cult was founded.

    My first point is that the word "angel", simply means messenger. And archangel simply means "chief messenger".

    It is also safe to say that God manifested Himself to man several times in the Old Testament. There a real difference between "an angel of the Lord", and "the angel of the Lord." It can be proven that the angel of the Lord is actually the Lord manifesting Himself to man.

    Genesis 21:17,18 "And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation."
    Genesis 22:11,12 "And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
    Judges 13:17,18 "And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret [or wonderful]?"

    What do these verses have in common? In every one of them the angel of the Lord speaks as if He were God himself. There are many more examples of this in the scriptures.

    God is a spirit, but His manifestations can be called angels, for He brings a message. Christ, who is God incarnate, is not an angel [as in winged creatures who serve God in heaven] either, but in a sense He can be called the archangel, the chief angel or messenger.

    Michael the chief messenger, and "the great prince who stands for the children of thy people", can most certainly be Christ Himself. Now we all know that Jehovah Himself was the One who stood for the people of Israel, He was their God and their redeemer.

    Undis,

    Youve made some good points and I can certainly see why you dont believe that Michael is Christ. I dont think its a real biggy either way you look at it.

  • Sargon
    Sargon

    Chef,

    It's a big stretch to look at the scriptures you've quoted here and arrive at the conclusion that Jesus and Micheal are one and the same. You'd need something a little more definitive to convince me.

    Edited by - sargon on 23 January 2003 15:45:5

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Also, Michael is called the "great prince". The Messiah in Is. 9:6 is called "the prince of peace".

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    SwedishChef, thanks for your comments!

    You said:

    I personally believe that when the Bible refers to Michael that it is referring to Jesus. The WTS did not come up with this, for this was around far before the cult was founded.

    My first point is that the word "angel", simply means messenger. And archangel simply means "chief messenger".

    It is also safe to say that God manifested Himself to man several times in the Old Testament. There a real difference between "an angel of the Lord", and "the angel of the Lord." It can be proven that the angel of the Lord is actually the Lord manifesting Himself to man.

    Genesis 21:17,18 "And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation."

    Genesis 22:11,12 "And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

    Judges 13:17,18 "And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret [or wonderful]?"

    What do these verses have in common? In every one of them the angel of the Lord speaks as if He were God himself. There are many more examples of this in the scriptures.

    God is a spirit, but His manifestations can be called angels, for He brings a message. Christ, who is God incarnate, is not an angel [as in winged creatures who serve God in heaven] either, but in a sense He can be called the archangel, the chief angel or messenger.

    Michael the chief messenger, and "the great prince who stands for the children of thy people", can most certainly be Christ Himself. Now we all know that Jehovah Himself was the One who stood for the people of Israel, He was their God and their redeemer.

    I do agree with you that in those Verses, Jesus Christ was "The Angel of Jehovah" (or "The Messenger of Jehovah") because it says that the Angel was Jehovah.

    Also, I believe that Jesus Christ is the "Angel" mentioned in the following Verses:

    Joshua 5:13: It happened, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a Man over against him with His sword drawn in His hand: and Joshua went to Him, and said to Him, Are You for us, or for our adversaries?
    Joshua 5:14: He said, No; but as Head of the Army of Yahweh I have now come. Joshua fell on his face to the Earth, and did worship, and said to Him, What says my Lord to His servant?
    Joshua 5:15: The Head of Yahweh's Army said to Joshua, Put off your shoe from off your foot; for the place on which you stand is Holy. Joshua did so.

    Undis,

    Youve made some good points and I can certainly see why you dont believe that Michael is Christ. I dont think its a real biggy either way you look at it.

    I have absolutely no problem with anyone believing that Jesus Christ is Michael, as a Non-Created Messenger, like you do.

    However, I do have a problem with the Watchtower Society teaching that Jesus Christ is Michael, an angel that was created by the Father, and that is an inferior and lesser person than the Father, and then forcing their Members to believe it.

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 24 January 2003 23:28:58

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik
    Is Jesus Christ the same Person as Michael the Archangel [Chief Angel], as the Watchtower Society teaches?

    What does the Bible say?

    Here are all of the Scriptures that mention Michael the Archangel:

    Undisfellowshipped,

    I do not care what the Watchtower teaches, but lets take a look at what the Bible has to say and in the process examine your proofs and see if you have made your point since you do not appear to believe that Jesus and Michael could possibly be the same.

    Undisfellowshipped stated: Daniel 10:13: But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

    Notice: That Verse says that Michael is "one of the chief princes", which must mean that there are more than one "chief prince" like Michael is.

    Joseph responds: Yes there are just as this scripture implies. What about Gabriel? Is not Gabriel another one of the chief princes? Notice: Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Undisfellowshipped stated: Daniel 10:21: But I will tell you that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none who holds with me against these, but Michael your prince."

    Daniel 12:1: "At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who shall be found written in the Book.

    Notice: That Verse shows that Michael is the angel who "stands up" for the Jews. In other words, the angel who is assigned to protecting and helping faithful Israelites.

    Joseph responds: Nothing in all this proves your point. This is prophecy and what makes you think that only faithful Israelites are to be protected or embrace the faith at that time? At the time the prophecy is fulfilled are not Gentiles also grafted into the faith? And is not Gabriel also involved in these visions of Daniel? Perhaps even delivering them? Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. {swiftly: Heb. with weariness, or, flight}

    Undisfellowshipped stated: Jude 1:9: But Michael, the archangel, when contending with the Devil and arguing about the body of Moses, did not dare bring against him an abusive condemnation, but said, "May the Lord rebuke you!"

    Notice: That Verse shows that Michael did not have the authority to rebuke Satan the Devil, but instead Michael said "May the Lord rebuke you!".

    Jesus Christ, the Lord of Heaven and Earth, while on Earth (after He had "emptied Himself" of glory, honor, and power), rebuked Satan and the demons several times, so if Jesus is Michael, why would He have LESS authority to rebuke Satan in Heaven than on Earth?

    Joseph responds: Simple, because such authority was not granted the WORD until He became flesh, when the words out of heaven were spoken that said: Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. As creator of man our Lord had authority over man, but not over Satan. Now this was all to change and authority would be given so that Jesus could NOW say: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    So you have proven nothing.

    Undisfellowshipped stated: Jesus while on Earth, prayed to the Father and asked that the Father restore the glory to Jesus that He had while in Heaven, so obviously, Jesus had MORE authority while in Heaven, than on Earth.

    Joseph Responds: Where is your proof? The more is power to create, the power to raise His own body without assistance, the power to raise the dead. This is the power that only our creator who was a non-human being could have. But such power, such glory has nothing at all to do with authority. You have proven nothing.

    Undisfellowshipped stated: Also, in Jude 1:4, it says that Jesus Christ is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler and Master". Would the Bible say that a created angel is "Our Only Sovereign Ruler"?

    Joseph responds: Of course! But the truth is no one know how the WORD came into existence nor does anyone understand the nature of such non-human beings. None of this is described in scripture. Just what kind of non-human are they? Descriptions such as angel or archangel do not tell us anything about their composition. So saying that Jesus is a created Angel means nothing and does not prove your point. And you use and apply the term Angel where human beings are under discussion such as in Hebrews.

    What is the non-human name of Jesus? The Word? No, the Word is a title and function for our creator not a name. Since we know the human name of this Word is Jesus. What then is His non-human name apart from His title and function? Michael?

    The Father has a name: Jehovah

    The Word has a non-human name: Michael

    And after becoming flesh has a human name: Jesus

    Makes sense to me.

    Joseph

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Joseph, you said:

    Joseph responds: Of course! But the truth is no one know how the WORD came into existence nor does anyone understand the nature of such non-human beings. None of this is described in scripture. Just what kind of non-human are they? Descriptions such as angel or archangel do not tell us anything about their composition. So saying that Jesus is a created Angel means nothing and does not prove your point.

    First of all, when I asked if the Bible would say that a "Created being" is our Only Sovereign Ruler and Master, you say "Of course!", but where are the Scriptures to back that statement up?

    And you use and apply the term Angel where human beings are under discussion such as in Hebrews.

    I have yet to see any evidence that the "angels" in Hebrews Chapter 1 were humans.

    What is the non-human name of Jesus? The Word? No, the Word is a title and function for our creator not a name. Since we know the human name of this Word is Jesus. What then is His non-human name apart from His title and function? Michael?

    The Father has a name: Jehovah

    The Word has a non-human name: Michael

    And after becoming flesh has a human name: Jesus

    Makes sense to me.

    Joseph

    Well, that's fine, and I'm glad it makes sense to you, however, I have still not seen any Scriptures that show Jesus is Michael.

    Why couldn't Jesus be Gabriel? After all, Gabriel stands in the very presence of God.

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