Sorry unD,
Now that I re-read my post I see the confusion. I was refering to the JW's manipulating scripture, not you although it sounded the latter.
sorry,
caveman
When did Jesus become The Christ?
by UnDisfellowshipped 18 Replies latest watchtower bible
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UnDisfellowshipped
Hi Caveman
You said:
Sorry unD,
Now that I re-read my post I see the confusion. I was refering to the JW's manipulating scripture, not you although it sounded the latter.
sorry,
Thanks for clarifying. Don't worry about it at all, I just wanted to clarify what you were saying. I re-read your original post above, and I can see now that you were talking about the Watchtower Leaders.
Thanks for your comments and thanks for everyone's comments!
Brummie -- Thanks for reminding me about Matthew 2:4!
Matthew 2:2: "Where is He who is born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."
Matthew 2:3: When Herod the king heard it, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
Matthew 2:4: Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he asked them where the Christ would be born.Yes, that is amazing!
The "Wise Men", and even the Pharisees, knew that He would be Born on Earth as the Christ and also the King of the Jews!
Yet -- the Watchtower Leaders don't even teach this simple Biblical truth! How can they possibly be teaching the truth about more complex harder-to-understand things?
So, that means either the "Astrologers" and the Pharisees knew more about the Scriptures than the Watchtower Leaders, OR it means that the Watchtower Leaders know the truth of the Scriptures, and they are intentionally lying and deceiving their followers.
Either way, it's not a good thing.
As a side-note:
The Watchtower Society teaches that the "Star of Bethlehem" was put in the sky by Satan the Devil.
Here are some interesting Scriptures about stars in connection with Christ:
Numbers 24:17: I see Him, but not now; I see Him, but not near: There shall come forth a Star out of Jacob, A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, Shall strike through the corners of Moab, Break down all the sons of tumult.
Malachi 4:2: But to you who fear My Name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in Its wings. You will go out, and leap like calves of the stall.
Luke 1:78: Because of the tender mercy of our God, Whereby the Rising Sun from On High will visit us,
Luke 1:79: To shine on those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death; To guide our feet into the way of peace."Revelation 22:16: I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you for the congregations. I am the Root and the Offspring of David; the Bright Morning Star."
2nd Peter 1:19: We have the more sure Word of Prophecy; whereunto you do well that you take heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns, and the Day Star arises in your hearts
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pseudoxristos
If I remember correctly, the idea that Jesus became Christ at his baptism is referred to as the "Adoptionist Theory" and it has a long history. I believe that the idea comes from Psalms 2:5-7
5 Then will he speak to them in his anger, and in his fierce displeasure will he terrify them: 6 And *I* have anointed my king upon Zion, the hill of my holiness.
7 I will declare the decree: Jehovah hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; *I* this day have begotten thee.
Psalms 2:5-7 (Darby's)It is also worth noting the different methods that the gospel writers use when describing the announcement
Matthew portrays it as an announcement to all present.
16 And Jesus, having been baptised, went up straightway from the water, and lo, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him: 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight.
Matt 3:16-17 (Darby's)Mark portrays it as an announcement to Jesus.
10 And straightway going up from the water, he saw the heavens parting asunder, and the Spirit, as a dove, descending upon him. 11 And there came a voice out of the heavens: *Thou* art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight.
Mark 1:10-11 (Darby's)Luke portrays it as a announcement to Jesus.
22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form as a dove upon him; and a voice came out of heaven, *Thou* art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight.
Luke 3:22 (Darby's)In the book of John, The Son of God is revealed to John the Baptist.
33 And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptise with water, *he* said to me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit. 34 And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God.
John 1:33-34 (Darby's)pseudo
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RandomTask
when he donned the tights, cape and mask!
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Balsam
Have any of you read the book "The Christ Conspiracy", it is very interesting. Perhaps Jesus Christ never existed, but is borrowed personality from other cultures like Buddha? Check it out.
Balsam
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Carmel
This is a facinating question and one i could get off on. in most of the discussions I read it seems those that discuss the bible take it as if it has been preserved in its entirety through 2000 years of history, six thousand if you include the OT. If you look at the KJ red letter version and extract all the red, (thought to be Jesus's actual utterences) you have less than an hour's reading. Consider a life of 33.5 years and a ministry of only the last 3.5, we have only a miniscule snipet of what occured and what He may have said. At that, it is only recollection by those that were enspired to write something down seventy to 100 years after the fact. I confess to believing that the essence of His teachings are captured but question how much dissection and splitting of hairs can be done with a document of such uncertain nature. How much of the bible do we not have? And why are the letters of Paul so much more important in protestant and probably Catholic theology than the utterences of Jesus?
carm
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UnDisfellowshipped
More Watchtower Quotes about Jesus being "Born Again" and becoming the Christ when He was Baptized:
"Insight" Book Volume 2, Page 70:
Jesus had been Gods Son from the time of his birth, even as the perfect Adam had been the son of God. (Lu 3:38; 1:35) The angels had identified Jesus as Gods Son from his birth onward. So, when, after Jesus baptism, his Fathers voice was heard saying, You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you (Mr 1:11), it seems reasonable that this declaration accompanying the anointing flow of Gods spirit was more than just an acknowledgment of Jesus identity. The evidence is that Jesus was then begotten or brought forth by God as his spiritual Son, born again, as it were, with the right to receive life once more as a spirit Son of God in the heavens.Compare Joh 3:3-6; 6:51; 10:17, 18
The Watchtower, October 15th 1965 Issue, Page 619:
32. And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water, and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Dy. See also John 1:29-34.
33. There Jesus became the Christ, for there God his Father anointed him with the holy spirit. From then on he could be called Jesus Christ.
The Watchtower, November 1st 1967 Issue, Page 647:
Jesus was anointed at his baptism in 29 C.E. and became the Christ or Messiah!
The Watchtower, April 15th 1972 Issue, Page 237:
17. In order to symbolize his presenting of himself to act as the Seed of Gods woman, Jesus got baptized in water. Then God anointed him with holy spirit and so Jesus became the Christ or anointed one. Hence he was called Jesus Christ.Luke 3:21-23.
"Knowledge" Book, Page 36:
So the Messiah was to appear 483 (69 times 7) years after 455 B.C.E. That brings us to 29 C.E., the very year that Jehovah anointed Jesus with holy spirit. Jesus thus became the Christ (meaning Anointed One), or Messiah.Luke 3:15, 16, 21, 22.
"Satisfying Life" Brochure (2001), Page 26:
4. When Jesus was about 30 years old, he was baptized in the Jordan River. At his baptism, he was anointed by holy spirit, or Gods active force. Thus, he became the Christ, meaning Anointed One. (Luke 3:21, 22)
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kes152
Christ means 'Anointed.' The Father said to his Son, "Thy throne is the throne of God for ever and ever, And the scepter of thy kingdom is the scepter of uprightness, Thou hast loved righteousness and thou has hated wickedness; That is why God, thy God anointed thee with oil of exultation MORE than thy fellows." (Hebrews 1:8).
Who are the 'fellows' who were also 'anointed with this oil?' They are David, Samuel, Moses, Aaron, Eli'jah, Eli'sha, all the prophets, etc. Even John the one who did baptizing was anointed and filled with holy spirit while in the womb (Luke 1:15). Now our Lord was begotten by holy spirit (Matthew 1:20). So if our Lord evidently received holy spirit before, during, and AFTER his days in the flesh, why couldn't be have been 'anointed' all that time? (John 17:5) He IS the Christ.
Peace to you,
Aaron
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UnDisfellowshipped
kes152 said:
Christ means 'Anointed.' The Father said to his Son, "Thy throne is the throne of God for ever and ever, And the scepter of thy kingdom is the scepter of uprightness, Thou hast loved righteousness and thou has hated wickedness; That is why God, thy God anointed thee with oil of exultation MORE than thy fellows." (Hebrews 1:8).
Who are the 'fellows' who were also 'anointed with this oil?' They are David, Samuel, Moses, Aaron, Eli'jah, Eli'sha, all the prophets, etc. Even John the one who did baptizing was anointed and filled with holy spirit while in the womb (Luke 1:15). Now our Lord was begotten by holy spirit (Matthew 1:20). So if our Lord evidently received holy spirit before, during, and AFTER his days in the flesh, why couldn't be have been 'anointed' all that time? (John 17:5) He IS the Christ.
Peace to you,
Aaron
Hello and Peace to you Aaron!
Thanks for your comments -- very good point!