I agree with Scully...let's ALL keep this focused on the survivors of abuse and not on the issues between Bill Bowen and Ray Franz.
Dottie
Bill Bowen talks about CBC Fifth Estate!
by UnDisfellowshipped 62 Replies latest jw friends
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Gary1914
Just for clarification here are the words of Ray Franz himself, as presented to this forum by Amazing. Blondie, Ray himself admits to authoring the chaper regarding the two witness rules and says that he repeated the inspired instructions from the Bible.
Why are you angry at Bill Bowen for simply making a point? Why does a simple setence is an extremely long post show that his main concern is fighting with Ray Franz? I think Bill has done and continues to do a tremensous job for you and all Silentlambs and every time he mentions the name of ray Franz does not mean anything more than we choose to let it mean.
As related in the book Crisis of Conscience, I was assigned to write a chapter in the manual titled Organization for Kingdom Preaching and Disciple-Making dealing with the handling of judicial hearings. The fact is that in that material I simply repeated the words written by the inspired Apostle Paul at 1 Timothy 5:19 when he says: "Never accept any accusation against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses." Paul quite evidently was drawing upon the provision in the Mosaic Law at Deuteronomy 19:15 which states: "A single witness shall not suffice to convict a person of any crime or wrongdoing in connection with any offense that may be committed. Only on the evidence of two or three witnesses shall a charge be sustained." Christ Jesus himself referred to this "two or three witnesses" principle. (Matthew 18:16) And his apostle, Paul, not only wrote it to Timothy but also included it in his second letter to the Corinthian congregation.2 Corinthians 13:1.
What I wrote back in 1972 has now been portrayed by the Silent Lambs source as being the basis for the Watch Towers twisted policy regarding the handling of child molestation cases. If so, then Paul, and Christ himself, as well as Moses who first set out the principle, bear similar responsibility since I was being guided by and quoting from their teachings. And, if we accept the divine inspiration of what they taught and wrote, then the slur conveyed by this charge must reach back to God himself. Paul makes plain that he knew what it was to have his statements and teachings distorted so as to convey something completely at odds with his intent. As he writes at Romans 3:8: "And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say) Let us do evil so that good may come? Their condemnation is deserved."
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Nathan Natas
I think people are too quick to criticise Bill for what they think is an attack on Ray.
First of all, Ray has admitted that he wrote the section on the two witness rule.
I think that what Bill is doing is saying," Listen, Watchtower, here's your way out of this - you claim that Ray Franz was such a BIG APOSTATE, yet you insist on following the policy that he authored. All you have to do is reject the "Ray Franz Doctrine" and you are off the hook!"
For some reason the WTS can't get this through their thick heads. While the WTS has assigned all of the books Ray Franz was a major contributor to, like the "AID TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING" book, to the dustbin of history - the AID book and other Ray Franz era publications are not on the WTS CDROM - the WTS vigorously defends their lopsided and archaic policy, which was AUTHORED by the Arch-Apostate himself, Ray Franz.
The WTS could even claim that they were mislead by demons in earlier years, as they did when they reversed themselves on their Pyramid doctrine.
I think Bill's point is a very good one, and it needs to be recognized as such.
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romansfourteen1to6
Farkel and some others think Bill attacks Ray by saying what Ray himself says. That's incorrect, Farkel and others.
I'm also sure Ray would, if he had known the misuse that would come of the two witness policy being rigidly applied by Watchtower Society's chief mover Ted Jarasz (himself accused as a child molestor), have clarified that there is a time and place for everything and
(1) a child's word plus (2) the testimony of investigating police or family services officers
can also constitute two witnesses as well as fulfill the Romans 13:1 requirement to respect the law.
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Mary
Generally speaking, the "two eye witness rule" can be of benefit, because it prevents someone from being falsely charged with a sin or a crime. However, common sense should dictate that this "rule" can not possibly apply to every single aspect of life, especially something like child molestation which is ALWAYS done in private. The scriptures often leave room for 'extenuating circumstances', like when Jesus and his disciples were "gleening wheat" on the Sabbath for something to eat. Under the Mosaic law, you weren't supposed to do any work on the Sabbath, but Jesus basically told them to quit whining about minute matters like this, and yet the "disregard the weightier matters of the Law". Jesus also gave the example of a sheppard who would help one of their injured animals, even if it was on the Sabbath.
The bottom line is: common sense has to prevail. I'm sure when Ray Franz wrote the "two eye witness" theory when still a member of the GB, he hardly had in mind that this would be great for protecting pedophiles! By the time this particular problem was brought to light, Ray was long gone from the GB. The remaining GB members have had plenty of time to change this policy, but instead have turned their backs on everyone.
Bill, I think it's fair to say, that Ray Franz is not the guilty party here. I have a great respect for what you both have done, but I don't think it's necessary to bring Ray's name up negatively on this matter.
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Valis
I was just thinking too that we slam the WTBTS litterature all the time, but this is a rare instance indeed where we match a piece of their doctrine with a face. It isn't fair to name him if we haven't a clue who writes for them now, as they are the ones that have perpetuated its use for so long. IMO, its like writing for a company in good faith and your work becoming their property. Whatever they do with your work is not your responsibility, especially when you wrote without malice or the the idea that so many years later your work would be twisted and used to hide pedophilia and protect the name of a corrupt organization.
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
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LDH
Please drop your public vendetta against Ray Franz, for the sake of Silentlambs, Inc., for the sake of Abuse Survivors, and for the sake of all ex-JWs. Please.
He can't. Period. He is still a JW at heart. Everything is simplistic. Everything is either right or wrong.
First grade morals. The lot of the JWs.
Lisa
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hawkaw
Here we go again .... damn ... I'm am just so sick of this ... esp. when I have busted ass over the last two weeks.
hawk
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Valis
hawk...please don't feel down. Your work is appreciated and I would imagine much of the exposure that has happened about the show wouldn't have happened if you hadn't worked so hard. This is also another reason I don't think that email should have been posted. It either becomes like the nancy park business or it ends up stirring old pots. Chin up mate and do take care.
Sincerely,
District Ovebeer
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RevMalk
My brother makes me so proud! He was the first one to put his lambs on the fence, then all of a sudden there was a storm of people, almost ran him right over, haha.