Bill Bowen talks about CBC Fifth Estate! (page 3)

RevMalk

Hawk, I haven't read this whole thread yet, but I have a word of warning to you. Quit making yourself so public. It's great you're helping with silentlambs, but he will cut you down for 'trying to take the limelight'. That was what happened to me. He didn't like that I was so public, and that's why he wanted to go to someone that was never a JW and that doesn't post on these boards. No offense meant, really, just be careful. I've been concerned about this for a while now. It will bite you in the ass.

RevMalk

Everyone is barking up the wrong tree. The two witness rule that the society has in place should not EVER be removed! Even asking them to makes us look like idiots. Come on, if any one of you were falsely accused of child molestation by the Church and tried and convicted on the word of one person, you'd be singing a different tune.

The two witness rule in itself is NOT the problem! Wake up!

The problem lies in the fact that the two witness rule ENDS the investigation.

This is exactly how it should work:

Child comes to Elders - NO witnesses
Elders ask the accused - He/She denies the accusation
Elders call police (this is #3 ONLY because they may be able to drag more proof out of the accused that can be used to put the low life away forever!)
End of story.

Who cares if the person is DF'd? That means nothing. The important thing is that the victim gets the help they need. I could care less if the society never DF another person again. What does that do for me, and what does that do for the victim? Let the Law take care of it, the Elders are not qualified in the first place!

Come on, it doesn't matter if Ray Franz wrote the policy or not, because the two witness rule is NOT the problem!

The authorities should be called whenever there is a case of abuse, and that's all there is to it. Whatever Policies regarding the church has nothing to do with anything. You might say "Ya, but what if they leave him in as Elder?". What difference does it make? If the parents are stupid enough to allow an Elder that has been accused, or confessed, or tried and convicted near their child, then they don't deserve to be parents, AND they would allow that person near their child regardless of his position.

This is all so frustrating. No more stupid letters to the society, no more accusing Ray Franz of writing a rule that makes perfect sense. You people really want to do something? Then quit dwelling on ridiculous, childish letters to the GB, and do something sensible. Like making sure everyone in your area knows. I don't care if you go knocking on doors, I don't care if you make phone calls, take ads out in the paper, write to your congressman, write to your Governor, hell, pitch a tent on your Governor's front lawn if you have to, because NONE of the current tactics are working! I've said it a million times, you can't chop this tree down from the top, you have to start at the trunk that supports the tree.

That trunk is made up of the rank and file JWs, the Laws that support their crimes, and the public ignorance that waters it.

Are you going to Wal-mart tonight? Then leave a flyer on their message board. LambsRoar has a 'Printable Flyer' option, where you can print this information out all formatted for this very purpose, or create your own flyers, it's very simple to operate: Create a Printable Flyer!

You don't have to use our set-up of course, I don't care how you do it, just do it!

This cause should be based on the following:

Support for Survivors of Abuse
Public Awareness programs
Working towards changing the law
Support for Abuse Survivors
Support for Abuse Survivors
Support for Abuse Survivors!

This might make me very unpopular, but I don't care. I will continue to fight for these rights until the day I die even if I do it alone!

OUTLAW

Hey Hawkaw,don`t let dubs flameing each other get to you..It has no reflection on the incredible work you`ve done..This board is a good example of how dubs get along..Sometimes they do,sometimes they don`t..Thats just the way it is,and theres nothing anybody can do about it...OUTLAW

Edited by - OUTLAW on 1 February 2003 15:53:10

Farkel

Mary said,

: The bottom line is: common sense has to prevail. I'm sure when Ray Franz wrote the "two eye witness" theory when still a member of the GB, he hardly had in mind that this would be great for protecting pedophiles! By the time this particular problem was brought to light, Ray was long gone from the GB. The remaining GB members have had plenty of time to change this policy, but instead have turned their backs on everyone.

: Bill, I think it's fair to say, that Ray Franz is not the guilty party here. I have a great respect for what you both have done, but I don't think it's necessary to bring Ray's name up negatively on this matter.

RevMalk said,

: Come on, it doesn't matter if Ray Franz wrote the policy or not, because the two witness rule is NOT the problem!

These two comments are at the very heart of the matter, and it ain't about Ray Franz. It's not the problem because the Watchtower shuns people and it's not the "two witnesses" policy that is the problem It's that the Watchtower society has arrogantly INSTITUTIONALIZED policies and FORCES these policies on all of its members, despite the fact that many times common sense dictates these policies are damaging to people in some or many situations.

There is no common sense in Watchtower World, only institutionalized policies: black or white policies.

THAT is the problem, and that is exactly what Ray Franz stated in his own defense when this matter was brought to his attention.

Hawk is right: let's get off this and keep focusing on the victims. The bad guys (whoever they turn out to be) will be outted in the end.

Farkel

ESTEE

(((((hawkaw)))))

I for one appreciate your hard work!!!

All those lambs on the WT fence presented quite a "visual" ! All those "innocents" pleading with the WT for justice. Can't help but wonder how many on the inside of the fence were questioning (at least in their own minds) the WT's stand on the handling of the cases. . .

And who had to remove the lambs from the fence?

ESTEE

UnDisfellowshipped

In Bill Bowen's message, he said:

Mike also mentioned the elders attempted to charge him with confession of a homosexual act and take judicial action against the victim when he was raped at age 13. This interesting as it was pointed out in my letter to the GB in December that this policy was in fact authored by Ray Franz in the 1972 OR book. This is the first documentary to mention the use of this aspect of wt policy to punish and silence children who come forward about their abuse.

Bill is saying that Ray Franz authored the following Policy:

Where Elders interrogate CHILDREN to see if they committed a "sexual sin" (with ADULTS EVEN!).

If the CHILD admits to committing a "sexual sin" [i.e. being raped or molested] even with an ADULT, the Elders will punish the CHILD!

However, the molester/rapist will NOT be punished unless there were two eye-witnesses or he confesses.

RevMalk

Bill is saying that Ray Franz authored the following Policy:
Where Elders interrogate CHILDREN to see if they committed a "sexual sin" (with ADULTS EVEN!).
If the CHILD admits to committing a "sexual sin" [i.e. being raped or molested] even with an ADULT, the Elders will punish the CHILD!
However, the molester/rapist will NOT be punished unless there were two eye-witnesses or he confesses.

Wait, I think you better clarify that, because that sounds (to me) that Bill thinks they interrogate children to intimidate them, as well as accusing them of a sexual sin, and that Ray Franz was behind this.

I don't think that's what you meant, or that that's what Bill means either. I'm probably misunderstanding, but I just wanted to clarify that before someone else misunderstands.

And also, Hawk, I think you're doing a great job too!

Prisca

Valis said:

I do think though that Bill should post this here himself and if he is unwilling to come here and defend his views then they shouldn't be posted here. Just my opinion.

This is my opinion too. If Bill Bowen feels he is above posting on this site, then what business is his emails being posted on this site?

My apologies to all the silent lambs out there, but Bill Bowen has done more to harm the cause than to help it. The sooner he loses his JW way of thinking, the better.

wednesday

Perhaps we should stop posting Bills info letters to the board. he is not asking for them to be posted here, so to ask him to come here and discuss his viewpoints is not fair.

hawkaw

In my mind ... Bill's post was good ... it's just the whole thing ... damn.

Bill Bowen talks about CBC Fifth Estate!

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