I admit I didn't read the whole thread but think D8TA 's opening comments were very thought provoking . I agree that the US seems to be on a totalitarian agenda that involves what is called the new world order . I thought Infowars.com had some very interesting things to say about a possible government conspiracy to undermine the constitutional law that has been the back bone of american society for some 200years .I hear alot of things and alot of finger pointing from both the democrats and republicans as to who is doing the undermining but as far as I can see they both are involved . I guess I will go back and read the rest of the thread despite some of the bickering and argueing I read on this page .
The Show of Over-Patriotism Astounds Me
by D8TA 113 Replies latest jw friends
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Farkel
D8TA,
: If you have something of value to contradict this evidence, please present it.
I will. You haven't presented any. You are SO stuck with your point of view that you think everyone who agrees with you has '"evidence."
How old are you, anyway? Life experience has SOME value about dealing with speculations made by talking head people. And life experience has much more value that what they say in history books. After all, SOME of us have actually LIVED through some of that stuff and remember vividly that stuff AS IT HAPPENED. How much of that stuff have YOU lived through, D8TA?
I suspect that you wouldn't know what real "evidence" is if it bit you in the butt. "Evidence" for you is everything that agrees with what you've already concluded. Anything that doesn't agree with your pre-conceived ideas is rejected as evidence for you.
All you've presented as far as I can see is speculation and wishful thinking. No one can predict the future, not even the people you worship.
Since we're into predictions, here's mine: we will attack Iraq. We will kill Sadaam or we won't. We will conquer Iraq as we did in 1991. This complicated process of our war with Sadaam will take approximately 18-20 minutes. After we accomplish this, we will help rebuild Iraq at great expense to our budget, as we are so famous for doing with countries we've vanquished.
We won't take away their oil, because if we did, they would be left with nothing but selling Camels as a business.
One cannot have a decent governmental budget in any Country only collecting taxes on the sale of Camels. I don't care how many Camels they sell.
Iraq gets to keep their oil. We won't take it. Iraq is forced to get a decent government that doesn't have to exactly follow our model, but DOES have to guarantee that government officials get elected by the people. The people should have all the collective rights in any REAL Civilization. If they screw it up, then they are to blame for what they get. This happens in the USA all the time.
After we win, ALL the fanatical Arabs will have even MORE hate for us. Hell, they had hate for us when we DIDN'T do any war for them: September 11, 2001. We were just minding our own business on that day. No wars, no nothing.
Whether we attack and demolish Iraq or we don't attack and demolish Iraq, the radical rag-head moronic Muslims will SILL hate us and will STILL plot and plan our destruction.
You cannot negotiate with pigs. First, you cannot win, and second, the pig actually LIKES it. - borrowed and slightly changed from Mark Twain
Farkel
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D8TA
* stands up, claps for the fine speech.... *
In which has NOTHING to do with what I've discussed here. I am talking about the Patriot Act and Dept. of Defense and how it effects the citizens of the U.S. of A. and the abuses of such.
Now, for a 50 year old moron...this is evident enough.
Would you like it spelled out for you...yet again?
This is not about Saddamn Hussien.
This is not about Terrorists.
This not about Pollyanna's Shoe Color
This is not about experience.
The links in which I provided, DO SHOW that; since the enactment of the Patriot Act, there have been Local and Federal authorities targeting U.S. citizens. FACT! This isn't allegation. This isn't speculation. This isn't wishful thinking. These events have happened.
Can you disprove this? NO? Well sit down, shut the hell up, and learn something, you stubborn old bastard.
If you can disprove, other then using your dumb ass "I'm 50 years old, how old are you" argument, then please present evidence that this abuse ( rights/freedoms) are NOT being compromised and my linked events had NOT happened...then DO IT.
Prove what I've presented here WRONG. Show me, show this board, that indeed...not any of this is happening. Show that those protestors weren't arrested. Show that those police didn't invade that home. Show that gentleman in Texas wasn't detained and denied legal service. Show that Students at WWU have not been unfairly targeted in investigations. THOSE HAPPENED IN DIRECT ASSOCIATION DUE TO THE PATRIOT ACT. FACT. FACT. FACT. FACT.
I don't give a hoot-n-holer about what is going on in Iraq, or with Suddam Hussien, or with AL-Queada, and/or Osama Bin Laden. This is about what is going on in the U.S. of A.
Now, if you wish to express that: Yes, compromising and conceeding on issues (such as the people in the provided links have experienced) of free speech, right to privacy, due process, etc. etc. is something that should be done...then just say it!
If you can't handle that, don't go jumping down on me about being "speculative" and having "wishful thinking".
Your head is so stuck up your ass about Saddam Hussien, you can't even take it out to see this has NOTHING to do with what I'm discussing here.
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Farkel
D8TA,
: Now, for a 50 year old moron...this is evident enough.
I'm 55, for the record.
I find it quite ironic that I'm not attacking you for attacking me and drawing blood by calling me a moron. Usually, I just respond in kind. Not this time.
I guess I feel sorry for you.
Farkel
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Realist
Farkel,
The people who say this War with Iraq is about oil were the same people who said our war with Iraq 12 years ago was about oil. They were wrong then and they are wrong now. If Bush senior and company wanted to control Iraqi oil, why didn't he? Our military vanquished their armies. Not only did we not take control of any of their oil, we ended up by suffering higher prices because of the embargo that's been in places for the last decade.
i think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective.
the average american indeed suffered higher gas prices. and the average american has to pay for the 350 billion US military budget. why? there are a million other things that sound illogical as long as you assume politicians care about the average american, french, german, whatever. politicians care for themselfs and for the lobbies supporting them. these are a few hundred people in each country. the rest of us are quite irrelevant and replaceable.
After we win, ALL the fanatical Arabs will have even MORE hate for us. Hell, they had hate for us when we DIDN'T do any war for them: September 11, 2001. We were just minding our own business on that day. No wars, no nothing.
there were a few excellent reports right after 911 on TV...about why the fanatical arabs hate the US. damn that you didn't catch them. these muslim fanatics are nutcases no question about it...but they have one valid point. the US is not in the region to help the arabs...the Us has stationed troops in kuwait, saudi a., bahrain etc. to protec its own interest...no other reason. so the US does not mind its own buisness.
and in the eyes of the fundis the US violates the sacracy of this holy muslim land and they bring in a foreign culture that is not welcome. if the US wouldn't be in the region the fundis wouldn't hate the US.
We won't take away their oil, because if we did, they would be left with nothing but selling Camels as a business.
my predicition is that the US will take away the oil. the big petrol companies will collect 95% of the money...the iraqis will get 5% (just as it was before hussein took the oil production in his own hands 30 years ago).
Iraq gets to keep their oil. We won't take it. Iraq is forced to get a decent government that doesn't have to exactly follow our model, but DOES have to guarantee that government officials get elected by the people. The people should have all the collective rights in any REAL Civilization. If they screw it up, then they are to blame for what they get. This happens in the USA all the time.
possible but unlikely...the US will only allow a US friendly regime. if the iraqis vote for a truly independent gov. the CIA will remove it. iraq will be just like many other 3rd world countries...a US puppet.
Whether we attack and demolish Iraq or we don't attack and demolish Iraq, the radical rag-head moronic Muslims will SILL hate us and will STILL plot and plan our destruction.
yes unfortunately. the reason being the action taken by the US over the last 50 years. now its indeed too late to get rid of the anti US hatred.
we will attack Iraq. We will kill Sadaam or we won't. We will conquer Iraq as we did in 1991. This complicated process of our war with Sadaam will take approximately 18-20 minutes.
100% agreed.
After we accomplish this, we will help rebuild Iraq at great expense to our budget, as we are so famous for doing with countries we've vanquished.
0% agreed. the nation building will probably be given to the europeans. the only thing rebuilt by the Us will be the oil refineries. the Us never made a great expanse to help others without vivid US interests involved.
just to make this clear...i do not think any other country is better than the US. france, germany, iraq you name it... they all work under the same principle...the few people in charge make primarily what is best for them than with a huge GAP what is best for the people of their country (just so that hey get reelected or not overthrown) and then at last and least what is best for people from other countries. it is ugly but nevertheless reality.
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D8TA
I find it quite ironic that I'm not attacking you for attacking me and drawing blood by calling me a moron. Usually, I just respond in kind. Not this time.
I guess I feel sorry for you.
Is that it? That's all you can come up with?
Where's your evidence and argument, where's your material presented? Where are your links? Newspaper references? Testimonies? What have you (or the people that have tried to counter what I've presented) done to present that indeed, what I'm saying here is in error or incorrect?
Show us.
Show the board (show me), where the Patriot Act is not being abused by Federal/Local authorities on common American citizens.
I've presented material in which it does, and I've presented links to people who have fallen in the wake of abuse.
Where are the counter claims? Show us where it's NOT happening?
Boy, if this was about the WTBTS...We surely would see the might of material presented to counter what I've presented, wouldn't we? But here we have the U.S. Government now in question, here we have various forms of law enforcement in question....where's the rebutal? Where are the links and resources in which show what I've presented here to be in question?
I've seen somebody so far, post just the Patriot Act, but didn't say whether it was being abused or not. I can post the Constitution too, and say "hey, it has the oversite of the Judicial branch". Doesn't show that it hasn't been abused.
Where's the meat? I just see a lot of patriotism and flag waving, and talk about Saddam Hussien or something else.
Crimeny, I even tried to be as arrogant and be an asshole to the extreme, to at least motivate people to prove me wrong for the sake of proving me wrong. What has come so far? Nothing. Absolute nothing.
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Crazy151drinker
I saw rubber bullets bouncing off of unsuspecting faces of onlookers.
Bullshit. Has anyone seen what happens to Palistinian rock throwers when they take a 'rubber' bullet to the face? There face goes bye-bye. The cop in the photo is using some kind of paint ball gun, hardly "rubber bullets". For the ignorant writer of the article, 'Rubber' bullets are not made out of rubber and do not just harmlessly bounce off people. Many Palistinians have been killed by 'rubber bullets'.
The first less-than-lethal bullets appeared in the 1880s when Singapore police shot sawed-off broom handles at rioters. By the 1960s, riot control police in Singapore, Malaysia, and Hong Kong were using more sophisticated wooden bullets. (Wooden bullets still in use today are called "knee-knockers.") British colonists brought the idea back home to England, where they replaced the wood--which could shatter and possibly penetrate--with rubber. Tens of thousands of rounds of rubber bullets were fired by British soldiers at citizens of Northern Ireland starting in the 1970s. By the 1980s the British had switched to more accurate plastic bullets, solid polyvinyl chloride cylinders about 4 inches long and 1 1/2 inches wide. The bullets are supposed to be shot at the lower half of the body; about 19 people have been killed by them in Northern Ireland mostly because of injury to the head. Numerous groups from the European Parliament to Human Rights Watch have called for a ban on plastic bullets.
In response to the Palestinian uprising that started in the late 1980s, the Israeli military developed its own rubber bullets designed to disperse crowds, to injure but not kill. These small rubber-coated metal pellets are supposed to be shot from a distance of about 130 feet and aimed at people's legs. But they can be lethal if shot at the head at closer range, and dozens of Palestinians have died from such injuries. Israeli political scientist Yaron Ezrahi titled his book examining moral conflicts in his country Rubber Bullets.
Rubber bullets were introduced in the United States to quell anti-war and civil rights demonstrators in the 1960s. A fatality in 1971 stopped their use until their reintroduction in the late 1980s. Though famously deployed against recent protesters, they are most often used by individual police officers to subdue armed, mentally ill people. The most common kinds are the bean bag bullet, a cloth pouch with about 40 grams of lead shot that delivers the equivalent of a punch from Mike Tyson, and a plastic cylinder like that used in Northern Ireland. There have been seven known fatalities in the United States and Canada from the weapons.
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seawolf
here is a rundown of a lot of the Patriot II. It looks a lot worse than I originally thought!
Here is a quick thumbnail sketch of just some of the draconian measures encapsulated within this tyrannical legislation:
SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administrations enemy combatant definition to all American citizens who may have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.) Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isnt broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.
Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person had inferred from conduct that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the enemy combatant terrorist designation.
SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.
SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of suspected terrorists and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as terrorist. These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.
SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.
SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the enemy combatant designation.
SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.
SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.
SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.
SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contemp charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.
SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: this is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever.
SECTION 111 expands the definition of the enemy combatant designation.
SECTION 122 restates the governments newly announced power of surveillance without a court order.
SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime.
*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.
SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to totally break down any and all walls of privacy.
The government states that they must look at everything to determine if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.
SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners and medical examiners operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clintons special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.
SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.
SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistleblower protection for Federal agents.
SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.
SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.
SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to stop other unlawful activities. It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.
SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.
SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.
SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.
SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.
SECTION 402 is titled Providing Material Support to Terrorism. The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.
SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.
SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or other criminals to use encryption in the commission of a crime.
SECTION 408 creates lifetime parole (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.
SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.
SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.
SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.
SECTIONS 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities. -
Francois
"Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again."
My friend, the government can do this now. If tonight around 3 a.m., you and your wife are peacefully sleeping, and someone breaks in your door. (Not a problem. Doors on our homes are designed to keep honest people honest, not to keep anyone out.)
Your house is invaded by 6 uniformed guys wearing bright lights on thier helmets, keeping you or your wife from knowing who you are.
You are handcuffed and frog-walked out of your house with your wife screaming in the background, and you are thrown into a van with no markings and whisked away.
Who is your wife going to call? The county police? The state police? The governor? Your senator or represenative? No one is going to know anything about your abduction now - or ever. And you can't call a lawyer from jail and you didn't have time to call one before you were handcuffed. And if you had, who would HE call the next morning? Same list as your wife?
The ONLY thing that will have any effect in even slowing this scenario down is for you to have some kind of sensor (like a dog) who will wake you, giving you enough time to get your own firearm out. (Your loaded one. Not the one with the trigger lock, the key to which is god knows where, and the ammunition for which is in the top of the closet where you can't reach behind next year's Christmas presents) You get your firearm out and you let loose with it. Hopefully it's an unplugged 12-guage loaded with 00 buckshot. THAT IS YOUR LAST BEST HOPE, you know, the one the liberals don't want you to have.
And that old saw we hear each and every time the government pases some draconian law? The one that goes "If you're not a law breaker, you have nothing to worry about?" Don't believe it. When you hear that, you know your goose is ALREADY cooked.
francois
