The Left And Islam (page 4)

LoveUniHateExams

@park ave boy

I was once a trendy, liberal-left tosspot. And I still am to some degree - I believe that common-law partnerships, gay marriage and relationships are the equal of traditional marriage between man and woman. As a JW teenager, I was homophobic (maybe still am, to some degree). Equality of different relationships is a good thing, and something that is supported by reality.

I believe that all races are equal and that White, Black, Asian, Oriental, Arab, Jewish and mixed-race people deserve equal, fair treatment, and don't deserve any stick because of ethnicity or skin colour. Biracial partnerships are fine.

But when certain sections of the Left (most of the Left, it seems) treat Islam almost as skin colour, so that to criticize it is to be bigoted, then me and the Left quickly part company. It is sad, particularly because far-Right nutters may fill in the vacuum. Look at the popularity of the EDL (UK) and Donald Trump (US).

I'm mostly centre-Right because I live in the real world, not in some blissful utopia. If ideals aren't practicably achievable they should be reevaluated.

coalize

It's very complicated to speak about "liberal" between french and anglosaxons. Because in France, when you say someone "il est libéral", means he's for the liberalism economic doctrine. In france, a "libéralé is at the right of the politic chessboard.

More, the far-left is "anti-libérale" and mainly "anti-capitaliste".

Personnally, i'm still very close of these positions.I'm still deeply internationalist, third-worldist and anticapitalist.

I doesn't leave the far-left for ideological purposes, but ONLY for the dissonance cognitive they have with Islam. As a third-worldist, I pay a lot of attention of people living in arabian countries, because, they are all in the third world. But the problem is the ideological jam in the far-left now, conflating third-worldism and islamophilia.

park ave boy

LOveuni you really have said it well! Thank you for being so honest about this discussion. I feel as you do except that I always felt gay marriage should be held as equal to hetero marriage, for obvious reasons ;) There is no difference when two people love each other more than anything and want to spend their lives together. We were never asking for any special rights above others just equal rights to marriage and everything that comes with that public bond.

I always thought I was born a liberal and will die as such but things are changing. As you so eloquently said "I'm mostly centre-Right because I live in the real world, not in some blissful utopia. If ideals aren't practicably achievable they should be reevaluated." We do not live in a utopian world. People are not willing to work for others for nothing. I hate to break it to my friends as well but greed is good when it comes to business. Capitalism is still the best system despite needing some regulations. See that is where I believe in balance. And we cannot expect that uncontrolled immigration from lawless nations will be good for us in any way. We need to help support them in their own lands not force them to integrate into ours. And the west needs to stick their noses in their own business. It is funny that you say the EDL is the equivalent of Trump because the only thing I see in common is both want to keep their nations sovereign and safe. On that point I strongly agree. There are actually several points I strongly agree with that are of the utmost importance to the future survival of this nation as a democratic republic, and yours as well as a democracy/monoarchy.

prologos

The left lost it's great chance to make a mark in 1914, (so did the newly enthroned invisible wt king of course), when labour in the countries ruled by the royalty cousins conscripted the masses to fight it out in that family feud, and islam as a force was not on the map yet. and now Europe is beginning to see the left's folly by facilitating entry of strange cultures into their countries. look at rotherham, paris, Cologne, Hamburg, even Mutti Merkel, her lefty supporters are shocked.

LoveUniHateExams

It's very complicated to speak about "liberal" between french and anglosaxons. Because in France, when you say someone "il est libéral", means he's for the liberalism economic doctrine. In france, a "libéralé is at the right of the politic chessboard - good point, coalize. I fear that in the UK, Marxists have appropriated the term 'liberal'. And, David Cameron, despite being leader of the right-wing conservatives, has liberally introduced gay marriage to the UK. So, 'liberals' must decide if they are conservative or libertarian.

There is no difference when two people love each other more than anything and want to spend their lives together - yes, I agree and this point cannot be emphasized enough. But it was difficult for me, growing up.

In the JWs, extramarital (& homosexual) sex was forbidden; in the 'world', people implied that I was gay because I promoted sex within traditional marriage only!

Also, the WT slyly implies that gay people are either obsessed with sex or are sexually 'deviant' or aggressive - i.e. that gay people wish to flaunt what they do lovingly in private or else wish to 'convert' hetero males or seduce underage males. AFAIK, all this is bullshit.

All the gay people that I know (ok, I don't know many!) have been sweet and decent. They've kept consensual, private acts exactly that - consensual and private.

we cannot expect that uncontrolled immigration from lawless nations will be good for us in any way - agreed. An honest, open debate on this is essential.

greed is good when it comes to business - agreed. Businesses should be ethical but as you say greed is good.

park ave boy

Immigration without integration is invasion. Most Muslims do not assimilate or integrate into western culture. How can they when their religion is toxic to freedom of the west? I was thinking when Angela Merkle said that Islam was always a part of Germany, I know my German colleagues were very shocked about this because Islam had nothing to do with Germany and the first Mosque was not even built until the 1950's. Islam is not in German history!

So my colleague made a few points I will try to remember. He asked, How will Germany and Europe look when 50% of the population is Muslim?

Will Germany still be known for its Oktoberfest? Will women be allowed to wear Dirndl? Will beer be brewed? How about pork? Pork is the most common meat in Germany. How about gay rights? Will gay families be allowed to adopt children like they are now? Will gays even be allowed in public? And not to forget the Christmas markets. They will be banned for sure!

Anyways there was more of what he said but I cannot write it all now. All I know he is very worried. He said because of extreme lefist politicians getting control and pushing for uncontrolled mass immigration he said the future of Germany does not look good. But he said we should not blame the immigrants! Blame the politicians for letting them come in! With that I again strongly agree. I say hold them accountable!

LoveUniHateExams

Will Germany still be known for its Oktoberfest? Will women be allowed to wear Dirndl? Will beer be brewed? How about pork? Pork is the most common meat in Germany. How about gay rights? - more importantly, will women be allowed to wear thong underwear?

Yours and your friend's concerns are my concerns. These issues need to be urgently and thoroughly addressed. Screaming 'Islamophobia' just won't wash.

he said the future of Germany does not look good. But he said we should not blame the immigrants! Blame the politicians for letting them come in! With that I again strongly agree. I say hold them accountable! - totally agree. Merkel should be held to account. If the German public kick her out, so be it. Liberals across the board should be held to account - Obama in US, Cameron and the LibDems/Labour in UK ...

barry

Thanks Loveunihate exams, for your insights about the left in France v Anglo.

If any of you know much about Germain Greer remember she wrote the book The female eunic.

Well Germaine has come out with a book just recently saying FGM Female Genital Mutilation should not be criticised because culture should take precedence over human rights in brown countries. She likened the example of a Goth in a western country getting their genitals pierced for jewellery to a 6year old girl being mutilated.

Everyone can see the 6year old has no choice in this painful dangerous and unnecessary operation that will impact her life into old age and in many cases cause her death at 6 years at the time of her marriage or at child birth.

Germains stand in itself is a form of racism because of someones skin colour they have to suffer this inhumane treatment.

prologos

well, Islamic Turkey and Germany were allies in the first world war, Churchill and anzac still get the chill. Wrongly the allies dismantled the Ottoman empire, C including Irac, Syria), that kept the lid on, now see what happens.

kaik

Coalize, I see it that Europe went through right, liberal-oriented economic policy with limited unions, privatization, and wider deregulation of markets. On the other hands, its political system is very left-oriented, anti-conservative, with goal destroying nation-states and socially re-engineering the Continent through multiculturalism. The outcome of these two policies in this decade lead to widespread social, economic, and political decline of Europe in every aspect of life. Unemployment for younger people created a generation that will not be able to acquire proper work-related ethics and will push them into lasting poverty.

The traditional view of the Left as known through Marx-Leninism is thing of the past. The left does not talk about nationalization, classless society, and revolution of the proletariat. However, it does not mean, that the left had disappeared. The right oriented parties and ideology is also bankrupted. The outcome is political apathy and low participation in the democratic system.

The Left And Islam

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