When speaking to a JW the other day, I didn't really have a good explanation of Ecclesiastes 9:5, where it says that the dead are conscious of nothing at all.
What is everybody's take on it?
"Dead conscious of nothing at all" .....
by anti-absolutism 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
LB
They use that scripture to reinforce their belief that there is no literal hell for bad people or heavenly hope for good people. It's just to mean we die and lay there dead in the ground until the resurrection. Well that's what they think anyway.
What are you doing talking to JW's? Don't you know you are supposed to be careful of your association?
I think it means that brain dead people are conscious of nothing at all. They left out the brain part.
-
archangel01
That is true the dead are conscious of nothing at all because it's a dead body, However.....That doesn't mean that person wasn't resurrected to spirit life.Remember a spirit person is invisible to the human eyes.Hope this helps.
This scripture is pretty good matthew cha.8 verse 11 an it reads "BUT I TELL YOU THAT MANY FROM EASTERN PARTS AND WESTERN PARTS WILL COME AND RECLINE AT THE TABLE WITH ABRAHAM AND ISSAC AND JACOB IN THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENS".
Now we know these people are dead in the flesh meaning they are conscious of nothing at all from a human stand point because there bodies are dead BUT this scripture proves they have all been resurrected and they are in heaven and very much conscious only in spirit form like Jesus.So they have new bodies so to speak,there old bodies (of flesh) are gone, dead, conscious of nothing, not active or alive. But there NEW body(of spirit) that they have is very much conscious active an alive.They switched bodies so the old one is gone and dead but the new one is active has life.Makes sense doesn't it!!!!Remember that old saying "Out with the old in with the new".
Watch the movie the 8th day with Arnold S., anyway in the movie they clone people so when someone gets cloned they switch bodies so of course there OLD body is not active or dead, but there very much alive in there NEW body.It you watch the movie you will get the point better I think ,only think of it for human body to spirit body!!!!!!!! Take care my friend
Edited by - archangel01 on 12 February 2003 20:10:11
-
Sargon
Remember that old saying "Out with the old in with the new".But there NEW body(of spirit) that they have is very much conscious active an alive.They switched bodies so the old one is gone and dead but the new one is active has life.Makes sense doesn't it!!!!
You don't really beleive this crap do you? If you do I got a great deal for ya....
-
A Paduan
As usual jwism doesn't go beyond what is written - which actually means "we don't go beyond the understanding of the flesh (i.e. aside from when we want something etc.)" - understanding scripture as literal and not spiritual - just can't get it.
But as you heard, "the dead are conscious of nothing at all".
So if you do see a glimmer of understanding in there, I suppose they're not quite dead.
paduan
-
Gopher
Solomon was viewing things realistically, as they are, from a human's standpoint. Try talking to a corpse! That corpse is not conscious of anything you say.
Now as far as whether there is an afterlife (or a reincarnation, or whatever), that scripture doesn't say. And there's a lot that could be said on different sides of that issue.
My take on it is: if there is an afterlife, we'll sure find out when we need to know! If there is a Creator that continues our life in the future, that'd be just fine with me.
But I'll try to live each day here (in this realm that we are sure of) to its fullest, just in case this is all that there is.
-
Sargon
For me to beleive crap like this, I'd have to be dead from the neck up.
Remember: Blessed are the cheesemakers.
Edited by - sargon on 12 February 2003 20:38:40
-
A Paduan
Gopher
Solomon was viewing things realistically, as they are, from a human's standpoint. Try talking to a corpse! That corpse is not conscious of anything you say.
Absolutely, but be it an idea or a narrative story, scripture is not the literal intention of the writer - but the inspired word gives a sense for a spiritual reading.
Paul wrote about behaviour and ways to live (like burdens) - but whether or not he was an apostle isn't why the words are inspired, nor do they quickly furnish a spiritual reading - and indeed the dead are not conscious of it.
paduan
Edited by - a paduan on 12 February 2003 20:53:1
-
NeonMadman
Ask the JW to read the entire passage in context:
*** Rbi8 Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 *** 4 For as respects whoever is joined to all the living there exists confidence, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.
Would the JW agree that "the remembrance of them has been forgotten," or would he assert that they are still in Jehovah's memory, awaiting future resurrection? Would he agree that they "have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun", or will they eventually be resurrected to earthly life? It is clear that the writer of Ecclesiastes is writing from a purely human, non-spiritual viewpoint. He is discussing appearances, not actuality. Otherwise, if we take these verses at their face value, there is no hope for any who have died. And it is not reasonable to assert that the writer was conveying a spiritual truth in the first part of verse 5, but writing from a purely human viewpoint in the remainder of verse 5 and in verse 6.
Edited by - NeonMadman on 12 February 2003 21:18:13
-
A Paduan
It is clear that the writer of Ecclesiastes is writing from a purely human, non-spiritual viewpoint.
Yes.
it is not reasonable to assert that the writer was conveying a spiritual truth
It's considered to be inspired text, as it was by those who included it in the bible.
It may not be reasonable for some to believe that inspired writing is about spiritual truths - that's their perogative - but it is true that even "a live dog" is better off than the dead.
Edited by - a paduan on 12 February 2003 22:4:35