"Dead conscious of nothing at all" .....

by anti-absolutism 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    but I have still not thought once I died I would be resurrected to Heavenly life

    Bu t how would anyone know how long it takes to be resurrected if they are dead - catholics believe that life after death will be immediate - and it's not 'stupid' as jws would state - fact is, in whatever way your dead, your not conscious to it - that's death.

    The entire book of Ecclesiastes is written from the viewpoint of a human on earth, without taking spirituality into account.

    But that has little to do with whether or not it is inspired, or whether it may be spiritually understood - such a method of evaluation is jwism typed understanding.

    See Caiphas - high priest - in Jesus time - before Christ was crucified - did he know what he had said ? and it wasn't really what he really intended either.

    That's what "inspired" is about. It's not about the intention of the writer /speaker - it's about whether God spoke through them - whether or not they knew it - God is Spirit (spiritual language).

    Edited by - a paduan on 14 February 2003 1:16:16

  • Utopian_Raindrops
    Utopian_Raindrops

    A Paduan,:butterflytwo: (Butterfly)

    I always love your posts but still the bible is not Jwism. It is the inspired word of God as you have pointed out.

    Since it is of God when speaking of the resurrection at Timothy as I pointed out its states the resurrection has not taken place. That their word will spread like gangrene and it also said of those teaching this they are subverting the faith of some.

    Now you state catholics believe that life after death will be immediate. I say GREAT......sounds wonderful.......now show me in the bible please. reading

    I have no problem ether way. What ever is Our Grand Creators Will Be Done.

    So please kind sir.give me a scripture.

    Thank-you,

    Utopian_RaindropsRelax

    Edited by - Utopian_raindrops on 14 February 2003 1:31:9

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    I don't know a scripture of the top of my head, though I would be suprised if there wasn't one - perhaps there's one in Ecclasticies.

    Anyway, if someone is dead, they don't know, because they're dead - so if they come back to life it's not as if they were getting bored waiting, twiddling their thumbs - if you were dead for one year - or for five million, billion thousand years, what's the difference - you're dead.

    So after this life is immediately something else, or nothing - so it seems.

    Did the wt never think of that ?

    paduan

  • Utopian_Raindrops
    Utopian_Raindrops

    if someone is dead, they don't know, because they're dead - so if they come back to life it's not as if they were getting bored waiting, twiddling their thumbs - if you were dead for one year - or for five million, billion thousand years, what's the difference - you're dead..Did the wt never think of that ?

    Not to defend The WT.....but yes......that is exactly what they taught.....just they taught wed all be living on paradise earth and only 144,000 in Heaven

    I have to say now I do not believe only 144,000 in Heaven (most likely as you know many more will be in Heaven) but, I still believe in a Paradise Earth. Guess I am gullible like that.

    ty for the chat,

    U_R

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Without your previous bias on the matter (bias formed through reading other Bible passages) There is no way you would arrive at the conclusions you have.

    My previous bias on the matter, if any, was toward the JW interpretation of the verse. This is not a topic I have done a lot of studying on since I left the JW's. I do understand, however, that everything I was taught by that cult is open to question, and I accept nothing that they told me without some other verification. So when someone asked what the verse meant, I read it again, along with the surrounding verses. I noticed that if you take those verses as written, i.e. that the dead are totally unconscious, then you must also interpret the surrounding verses as being literal as written, also. Which would imply that there is no resurrection of the dead, ever. So, if we understand this verse to be speaking of the actual state of the dead, and not merely the appearance to us as humans, then we must conclude that there is only this life, and that the only rewards we can expect to receive from God are to be experienced in this life. Regardless of how you might interpret the rest of the book, that pretty much demolishes the JW interpretation of the verse, since you can't have one word or phrase in the verse be figurative, and the rest be literal. And that, of course, was the original question - are the JW's correct about this text?

    Many say it like, "Bible interprets Bible", this is merely another way of saying superhuman judgement (Divine assistance)

    So are you acknowledging the divine origin of the Bible? If not, wouldn't it be a case of man interpreting man?

    Do you not feel that the "proper" understanding of this passage can only be had if you understand the rest of the Bible? Or said another way, Do you not feel that by reading this book without the rest of the Bible a person might draw a "wrong" conclusion? I'll say it again it should concern us that the Bible "requires" Divine assitance to understand it "properly".

    Yes, I consider that the Bible as a whole is a revelation from God, and that to understand one part, we need to consider what other parts say on similar subjects. That's a bit different than saying that we 'require divine assistance to understand it properly'. While I believe that all of the Bible was inspired by God, I also realize that it was written by different men using different styles, in different circumstances at different times. The same concept may be addressed in many different ways and from many different viewpoints at various places in scripture. Most people would see this as an advantage, adding to the richness and flavor of scripture. It seems to me that you are trying to turn it into a disadvantage, and a reason for rejecting scripture.

    Some parts of scripture are quite literal. The nails driven into Jesus' hands were, I'm certain, hard, cold and made of iron. Other parts are quite figurative: I won't be going down to the beach any time soon to see whether a beast with seven heads and ten horns wanders up onto the shore. The various parts complement and explain each other, and add meaning to scripture as a whole.

    There is another aspect, too. In addition to being useful as scripture, many parts of the Bible are also great literature. Ecclesiastes certainly qualifies here, in my opinion. If you take the book alone, as literature, you may gain a certain amount of wisdom from it. But, if you take it as scripture, and ignore the rest of the Bible, you will have immediate problems. Because while the verses we are discussing in chapter 9 seem to indicate that the present life is all there is, chapter 7 tells us that the day of death is better than the day of birth, and chapter 12 speaks of the day when God will bring all things into judgment. There's no problem understanding any of this in the light of other scripture; taken alone, the picture is distorted. And that's appropriate, because God did not intend Ecclesaistes to be His only revelation to mankind.

    I read this book as the spiritual musings of a man/men confused by the bitter realities he sees yet he contritely expresses conviction that a Divine plan is at work. This is the work of of a spiritual man seeking to understand spiritual things.

    I'm inclined to agree with that assessment. I didn't mean to imply that the writer was not a spiritual man, only that he chose to write the book as one perceiving things from an earthly viewpoint. In other words, I don't think he was trying to say that the absolute condition of the dead was unconsciousness, only that that is the way it appears to us. Similarly, it appears to earthly man that the dead are gone forever, though the writer clearly understands spiritually that that is not the case.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    You have missed my points by prepaing a defense without considering carefully my arguements. Your comment dismissing the arguement was not as witty as you think. Whether I accept the the Bible as inspired or not is not relevent. You and millions of others do, and this is the reason my comment equates the maxim, "Bible interprets Bible" with the phrase I used , "involving Divine assistance for proper interpretation". Since this has been acknowledged by you as how you feel, my comment was accurate. This "solution" has formed through awareness that sincere readers of the Bible have drawn very different conclusions as to what a writer was saying. This is unintentionally confessed by the creation of this supposed solution. The next step is to say that a proper understanding of the rest of the Bible makes interpretation of controvertial passages possible. The hitch is that any Church/cult has a unique understanding of the Bible as a whole and therefore "proper" interpretation of any one verse becomes an exclusive possession of the cult. This in turn reinforces the cult's claimed ability to interpret verse properly. This is why I said that the view that "Bible interprets Bible" opens the door to exclusiveness and cult developement.

    When I spoke of your previous bias necesitating a way of harmonizing this passage in Eccl. I was not speaking about any particular interpretation (although of course this occurs), rather I was saying your bias of using Scripture to interpret Scripture was necessitating that the verse not be understood the way millions of people have understood it. That is that the author did not entertain hope of resurection or an afterlife.

    The JWs are of couse equally guilty of the same bias , "Bible interprets Bible", and this is in part why they have become a cult. It is inconceivable for such ones to recognize contradictions within the Bible for the favored passages superceed the less favored by reshaping the meaning of the latter. Your escape from cultlike thinking has not yet been complete.

  • siegswife
    siegswife
    Would the JW agree that "the remembrance of them has been forgotten," or would he assert that they are still in Jehovah's memory, awaiting future resurrection? Would he agree that they "have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun", or will they eventually be resurrected to earthly life? It is clear that the writer of Ecclesiastes is writing from a purely human, non-spiritual viewpoint. He is discussing appearances, not actuality. Otherwise, if we take these verses at their face value, there is no hope for any who have died. And it is not reasonable to assert that the writer was conveying a spiritual truth in the first part of verse 5, but writing from a purely human viewpoint in the remainder of verse 5 and in verse 6.

    Neonmadman, That's almost exactly what I was thinking. The JW's take one verse out of several that are used to express a thought and turn it into a doctrine. They disregard the context because if all of the verses are taken as literally as that one, their whole belief system regarding the resurrection would be shattered.

    What they do here is the same thing that they do to come up with just about all of their "truthful" doctrines. Take a thought written in the Bible and assign literal significance to one part of the whole, and either totally disregard or say the rest of the thought as "symbolic". In that way they end up being way off base regarding what the writer is trying to convey in total.

    Is there any group more bassackward and unenlightened than the FDS class?

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    You have missed my points by prepaing a defense without considering carefully my arguements.

    No, I don't think I have. I happen to believe, however, that you are trying to take a very positive aspect of scripture (its interwovenness), and tar it as being a negative. i don't think there is any validity at all to your argument. Yes, scripture interprets scripture. That's a good thing. It leads to a rich tapestry that we can return to again and again, and find something new each time.

    any Church/cult has a unique understanding of the Bible as a whole and therefore "proper" interpretation of any one verse becomes an exclusive possession of the cult.

    Which is why cults are cults. You used the phrase, "Bible interprets Bible," with reference to the JW's, but is that really what they believe? It's good PR for them to use when they are trying to convert outsiders, but the real bottom line, as anyone who has been a JW knows, is "organization interprets Bible." JW beliefs do not stand up when examined according to accepted theological standards; it is easy to demonstrate that they take many scriptures out of context, or misapply scriptures, in their efforts to prove doctrines that the organization finds it convenient to teach. That's why they are considered a cult (from a religious, as opposed to a sociological perspective): because they do not allow the Bible to interpret the Bible.

    I was saying your bias of using Scripture to interpret Scripture was necessitating that the verse not be understood the way millions of people have understood it. That is that the author did not entertain hope of resurection or an afterlife.

    Apparently you answered before reading all of my previous comments. If that is what the author of Ecclesiastes actually meant, then he was being inconsistent. He also stated that "A good name is better than fine perfume, and the day of death better than the day of birth." (Eccl. 7:1) How could that possibly be so, if there was no hope of any future existence? The day of death would be the worst possible day of all under those circumstances.

    Later, he stated, "For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil." (Eccl. 12:14) When would this occur, if he believed that there was no life beyond the present one? Your interpretation is not in harmony even with the whole of the book of Ecclesiastes, so one need not even invoke "Bible interprets Bible" to disprove your assertion. Ecclesiastes, taken alone, shows your understanding to be wrong.

    is inconceivable for such ones to recognize contradictions within the Bible for the favored passages superceed the less favored by reshaping the meaning of the latter.

    Any major body of literature is bound to have apparent contradictions. I'm sure you could find numerous contradictions in Shakespeare's writings, if you simply took passages out of context and compared what they appeared to say. That doesn't mean that Shakespeare was insane, or incoherent; it means that he wrote about things in different ways, at different times, in different contexts. The principle of looking at the message of a work as a whole in order to interpret its parts is not unique to the Bible, it applies to virtually everything that has ever been written. If you study theology, you will find that there are well-grounded rules of Biblical interpretation, which can be applied to extracting the meaning from any text.

    Your escape from cultlike thinking has not yet been complete.

    I suppose that will only occur when I embrace the light of the one true religion, atheism?

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    well when Jesus told one of his diciples who asked to go help with a family funeral, "let the dead bury the dead" it is clear he wasn't refering to literal dead people burying other literally dead people. He clearly included those who had not recognized His station as "spiritually dead". So the "dead" that know nothing at all are manifestly the "spiritually dead" and their comprehension is nil!

    problem solved

    caveman

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I am not an atheist by the way. But that is another fruitless discussion. As for now, I know that you are convinced you have considered my words and yet drawn different conclusions, and apparently that is the best that will occur. Our mutual concern will only turn to greater and greater frustration if we continue this topic.

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