Is there really any universal issue of Sovereignty?

by Linda14 23 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Linda14

  I can agree that Satan doesn't see God as a good ruler as stated at Gen 3:1-5. He doesn't seem to see Gods laws as right or good. But whether there is an understanding/agreement between God and Satan afterward to the effect that he can take the mantle of rulership to show whether his style is best is doubtful.

  That conclusion is probably reached because God hasn't destroyed Satan, and he is also called the ruler of the world in the bible. So the thought goes that he is left to live because there is an ongoing issue.

  I will rather think that Satan is still living because God doesn't always execute judgment immediately.

  Satan ruling the world is not that he has absolute control of what goes on in the world. He rules the world of unfaithful mankind simply because those persons have chosen to disobey God's directions and laws. Any who obstinately disobey God is not reckoned as under God's rulership, as such to the opposing side, Satan. Before their destruction, Satan has authority over these persons since they wish to do things contrary to God's will. Since God's judgment doesn't come immediately, Satan just have a field day.

  However, God is still in charge, and can hold them responsible for what they do any day, any time He decides. There is no prove-me-wrong senario here.

  If there is any prove-me-wrong senario, I don't think God would immediately pass a death sentence on Satan in Eden. Gen 3:15. What will be the need for the contest when your fellow contestant is already been judged to be a loser and will be killed? If there is any contest, God won't destroy people with deluge and Sodom with fire and then the contest is still ongoing.

  I mean why kill persons who are obviously enjoying Satan's rulership? Did the majority say that they were tired of the world they lived in or they were tired of the way they lived their lives? God didn't destroy them because they were tired of their lifestyle, but because their sin was too much for God to bear. It is true that there were outcry against Sodom, but probably Lot and few others had that perception, but not the majority in Sodom. So it appears that what is termed good rulership is what God sees as good, not necessarily what Satan or his followers see as good. If that is the case, there is no contest here.

  If you think about it, majority still see God's standard as too restrictive and bad for them. They rather prefer independence as the best option. Will that make Satan a winner of the contest? If not, what will? I don't think that majority will one day want God's rulership. But God will still destroy them if they don't choose to obey HIM. So God is and will always be the ruler. That He allows bad people to stay temporarily doesn't mean that He wants to prove anything, but He is loving, patient, doesn't quickly execute judgment because we're free moral agents.

  We are created to make our own decisions, God won't always let those who disobey Him to live. He will destroy them, but He doesn't do so immediately. That time lag makes the wicked and Satan to cause problem for the just.

  We don't want to forget the fact that God was the ruler of the kingdom of Israel. This is obviously because Abraham accepted to follow His laws. There came his descendants. For God to rule Israel is a bridge of contract if the issue of Eden is true. God even intervened and appointed some kings in another lands like Syria. At Dan 5;21 he stated that He has authority to appoint and remove kings and that He is the king in the kingdom of mankind. That would have been a brigde of contract. He calls all kings as being his ministers as well.

  However, since these kings might chose to disobey God and even worship demons, God normally let them be and Satan will control them. That doesn't mean that if God wants to intervene in those rulership He wouldn't. He is always in charge.
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  peacefulpete

  It's a lot to unpack Linda, but for a moment think of the layers upon layers of interpretation that is required to arrive at a conclusion like the Universal Sovereignty (aka Great Controversy) doctrine of Adventists like the JWs.

  Think of religion as a process of reinterpretation rather than revelation.

  Words and symbols of one generation take on new relevance when seen in new novel ways by a later one. The Eden story in Genesis is part of the (J ) Yahwist story of creation. He is a clever writer who uses imagery and symbols from his surrounding culture in fresh ways. The goddess worshipped throughout Middle East as the "Mother of all" was symbolized by a serpent and tree. Here the worshiper of Yahweh takes those symbols and recasts them as the agents of death. The man is tempted by the woman Eve (defined as 'the mother of all') by means of a snake and tree. The woman gets pain and domination, the tree is never heard from again and the snake gets humiliated by having to crawl on the ground without legs and bite heels of people who kill snakes whenever they get the chance. This process of reinterpretation does not end there. The symbols that once played a small role in a small story, fascinated readers, centuries later, who understood these words as a code for spiritual secrets. Suddenly the snake was not just a snake but reinterpreted as code for a spirit being, the fruit became sex or something of cosmic importance.

  I see that the rest of your comment shows an awakening of your mind. Keep asking questions.
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  BelisemDeBelimakom

  While I was still a PIMI, this topic was always a mystery to me. Now, I don't believe in a "universal issue of Sovereignty" neither: that is minimizing God's power. I believe this term is created by WT or previous cults for their own purposes.

  Reading the following books helped me to have a better view of God and His power over all His creation:
  

  - The Book of Enoch, translated by R.H. Charles [1917]

  Shows how God punished the rebel angels, how angels tremble before God.

  - The Book of the Cave of Treasures, translated from the Syriac by E. A. Wallis Budge [1927]

  Shows you how the revolt started with all its aftershocks in heaven.

  - The Book of Adam and Eve (The Forgotten Books of Eden) edited by Rutherford H. Platt, Jr. [1926]

  Detailed interactions of God and first couple after they were cast out of the Garden..
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  TonusOH

  Linda14: That time lag makes the wicked and Satan to cause problem for the just.

  If Satan and his followers are wicked and those who follow God are just, then the proper outcome would be for God (and justice) to prevail over Satan (and wickedness). One wonders why God would allow wickedness to spread over the world at the expense of justice, but we can also recognize the story as a way of explaining why humanity is in the shape it's always in. It's not a great story, but we're talking of a time when editing documents was a very rare thing indeed.

  Satan is an odd character. He challenges God and leads humanity away from him, even though he must realize that the story can only end one way. Satan is a tiny speck in a massive universe that was shaped by the hand of the person he has chosen to oppose. God can (and, in the story, promises to) undo the Devil's damage at any point and restore order to the universe. One wonders what principle the Devil stands for. But, when your life story is a sloppy amalgamation of many old tales and themes, I suppose this is the best we can hope for.

  In any case, the issue of sovereignty is -in the case of the Abrahamic God- a case of "might makes right." Had Satan's cause been just and God been wicked, God wins anyway. Right and wrong come into play mostly because we don't want the winner and ultimate power to be wicked. And not even just, in some cases. So God is also presented as merciful. And kind. And loving. And so on. This seems to happen as a progression, as if the people defining God realized at some point that their early depictions were quite scary, and they needed to tone Him down just a bit.
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  KalebOutWest

  While I remember all the hours of studying this in Watchtower publications, the Jewish side I came to learn upon leaving the Organization seems to unwind a lot of the issue.

  1. All branches of Judaism, including Orthodoxy, agree that the Garden of Eden narrative is mythology (an origin narrative).

  2. The serpent is not "satan" nor a demon. Speaking animals are a Hebrewism, narrative devices for warning people, like Balaam's donkey that talks to him in Numbers 22.21-39. The talking donkey is no more "satan" than is the serpent in Genesis 3.

  3. The issue in Genesis has to do with the Mosaic Law, since the whole thing is part of the Torah. In chapter 1, humans are made in "God's image," in chapter 2 they are given the job to work in a walled garden, much like the ones in Babylon that are owned by the rich (which usually have only one entrance and guarded by armed swordsmen), and in chapter 3, they break one of the Ten Commandments by stealing from God's tree of knowledge and feel shame after they look upon one another, hiding what they look like.

  According to the original Jewish view, the story was written when the Jews were in Babylonian exile and wanted to go back to the Promised Land.

  Like Chapter 1 of Genesis stated, they believed it was God's purpose for them to observe all the laws of Moses, especially the Sabbath (which is why you see God himself resting on the Sabbath--why would a deity need to rest, unless the story is trying to teach something about the Mosaic Law to Jewish readers). Being made in God's image, the Jews believed they were supposed to do the same, but failed to do so as Ezekiel repeatedly points out as the reason for the exile in Ezekiel ch. 20.

  The Jews were not monotheists before the exile and worshiped a multitude of gods. Even when they tried to worship the God of Abraham, they would do this in the way they wanted to, not the way the Law of Moses directed or the way the prophets taught them. After the exile occurred, they believed that God had exiled them from his "garden" much the way a rich Babylonian would a gardener for stealing.

  In the story, the first parents of the Jews, Adam and Eve (who some Jews believe are historical) were placed in the myth to act as the caretakers of the Garden of Eden. They hear God's instruction to not eat from his tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, but believe it has some power to make them like Him.

  The truth is, Adam and Eve are already in God's image. But they do not believe this. They want to decide for themselves how they come to be in God's image and think that the fruit of the tree will give them what they need to do this.

  It doesn't. In fact, all that happens is that they become thieves. In the attempt they become to despise one another for what they've done and hate who they are and decide that they are "naked," when in reality they were fine just the way God made them.

  The story is not about how sin came into the world but laments that sin is part of the Jewish history and their failure to live up to the covenant. They lost their land. They believed, at that time in history, that God was behind the exile.

  So this story was the way they explained it in relation to the need to observe the Mosaic Law and why they, at that time, believed it was important to keep it. The narrative was not intended to be read out of reference to the Torah.

  Of course, the Christian take changed the view with the Pauline narrative in his letter to the Romans. And the introduction of Satan the Devil heavily personified in the New Testament wiped away all Jewish views. It was St. Augustine's Confessions that brought this together into the doctrine we know as "Original Sin."

  The Christian take of Original Sin would be replaced by the Issue of Sovereignty by the Adventists which has been adopted by Jehovah's Witnesses, although few in mainstream Christian religions have ever heard of it. The reason is that the "issue" pins God and Satan as equal foes or archenemies of one another, something that is impossible in mainstream Christian doctrine.
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  Fisherman

  Why then the kingdom of God? Think about the whole picture.
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  Anony Mous

  Here is the issue, when god feels challenged in the Bible he often punished swiftly and immediately. When the ark was about to fall or when someone did a census or entered the holiest of holy in the temple or when the watchers came to earth to copulate with women, Tower of Babel etc etc

  So why is it that even angels are punished quickly, but Satan is the exception (according to Adventist views).

  In that light, wouldn’t that prefer the original Jewish view that Satan does not exist as an entity but rather evil is an aspect of God himself, God rewards and God punishes. You can even have the view described in Job that it is Gods will for people to suffer where Satan is a Prosecutor, an agent of God that searches out the individual's wrongdoings and appears as their accuser.
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  Ding

  The Watchtower uses the sovereignty issue to keep JWs in line.

  Whose side are you on?

  Us v. them.

  Loyal followers of Jehovah v. evil apostates...
  
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  ThomasMore

  WTC has always preferred a simple litmus test for their adherents - as Ding expressed. Anything that could lead into a gray area of what is right or wrong is quickly squelched. For example, they don't want to talk about how their disbelief in an immortal soul or an inexhaustible life force conflicts with the resurrection of the real person (this is only one example). They demand simple equations to sift their followers, otherwise chaos could break out.

  Universal Sovereignty is the perfect Black v White issue. Give the wrong answer and you are OUT!
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  ExBethelitenowPIMA

  So specifically, what exactly is wrong with the JWs interpretation of the Bibles explanation of the challenge in Eden?

  https://www.jw.org/finder?srcid=jwlshare&wtlocale=E&lank=docid-502018850_1_VIDEO

  For or me this is the only thing that makes sense.

  But please try to convince me of a different interpretation?