When getting that triumphinglike reply, as to they're being Gods org,
what do one say...?
Veronica
when getting the reply 'where would we go?where does Gods people gather'?
by Veronipony 18 Replies latest jw friends
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SixofNine
I'm goin' to Disneyland!
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TemeculaMole
Here is a response that was posted on c-channel.
Hello,
I frequently get emails from Jehovah's Witnesses who are concerned about certain teachings or policies in the organization, but who are left asking, "Even if I think there are significant problems in the organization, where else would I go if I left or if I am disfellowshiped for speaking out against false teachings and abusive policies?"
Since this point comes up more than any other in the emails I receive, I thought it might be helpful to post some thoughts on this question by copying an email I recently sent to a concerned brother. I will keep his name confidential, of course.
Dear *******:
Sorry for the delay in responding to your last email.
I am glad to hear that you have some positive leads on how to proceed with your situation.
Regarding the first century Christians, what we have is a situation where Christ's followers constantly battled for the truth and for sake of the good news. This battle often involved confronting persons inside the Christian Congregation who were speaking falsely. Indeed, Paul went so far as to write that if he, an inspired apostle, or an angel of light, spoke differently from what they had already been taught, then they should be rejected Galatians 1:8-9). So there was a freedom among first century Christians to reject those who taught error, and to hold true to one's conscience without fear of being shunned. That freedom does not exist in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses today.
As for the PAROUSIA, we do not know when this event will begin, or if it has begun already. Therefore, we cannot use it as a sure basis upon which to act. We must act according to what the Bible teaches and let it be our guide. Assuming that God has established an organization today because we may be in the period of the PAROUSIA ignores the fact that God's chosen organizations of the past have all fallen into periods of apostasy. Therefore, the question is not whether or not God has an organization today, but whether the organization we think is his has fallen into doctrinal error. If we truly believe the Watchtower Society represents Jehovah's will on earth, then we should be the most concerned of all people if we find that errors are being taught. Yet, the thinking of some Witnesses is that if it is God's organization we should ignore the errors because it is God's organization! That, to me, is incredible, and does not conform to the biblical pattern where we find God and Christ Jesus approving of individual members of their organizations (Jewish and Christian) who reacted to false teachings and unholy policies that harmed God's people and that did not represent his will. (Compare Jesus' words to the members of the congregation in Ephesus, in Revelation 2:1-2.)
Whether the "dragnet" is still pulling as it was during the Middle Ages, who can say? As Christians, we are called to imitate Christ and Christ held truth to be paramount: "For this reason I have been born and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone that is on the side of the truth listens to my voice" (John 18:37). Paul taught Christians to 'obey truth' (Galatians 5:7), and to be "pillars in support of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). In Titus 1:14 "commandments of men" are directly contrasted with "truth." Those who turn from the latter to the former are called "deceivers of the mind" in verse 10, and we are told to be "reproving them" in verse 13. How can this be done in the Watchtower Society today? It cannot be done, except from the top down.
You either accept what the Society says or you are marked and eventually disfellowshiped. You are not able to bring a cause for complaint against the members of the Governing Body or those responsible for the material in the publications. They will either correct themselves or they will not. You have no recourse but to go along with what is written if you wish to remain a member in good standing with the organization. This was not the way of the first century Christians. Paul confronted Peter with a serious complaint and Peter accepted the counsel. He did not complain that Paul was out of place because he did not listen to the one (Peter) whom Christ appointed to 'feed his little sheep' (John 21:15-17). He did not complain about Paul causing division. How can division be wrong when the division is over truth and error? These two must be divided. Christians today do not view Paul's action as inappropriate, and yet he is an example for all Christians (2 Thessalonians 3:9). Paul was right and Peter was wrong, even though Peter was directly charged with 'feeding' Christ's followers.
The Bible speaks of weeds and wheat being intermingled until the harvest, which harvest appears to be the time of Armageddon, not the period since 1914, though I cannot say for sure. No one can. But if that is the case, then it should not surprise us to find Christians in all walks of life hidden from one another in many instances by "weeds," to be united when Christ comes in judgment. Then his people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth and comprise the "new heavens and the new earth." (Well, at least this is one way to view it.) This does not mean we cannot evangelize or tell others what the Bible teaches on matters such as Christ's Messiahship, the divine name, God's name and identity, and even do so with passion and conviction. But understanding the complexities of Christian devotion today and how fragmented God's people might be as a result of a wide range of religions and authorities can help you have a more balanced perspective which will allow those who choose to leave the Watchtower organization to carry on their work in smaller numbers.
You mention that if you left the organization that your zeal would likely decline. If your zeal would decline as a result of leaving the organization, could it be that your zeal is to some extent misguided? I ask this only because it is often a problem for Witnesses to remain active apart from the organization because the organization has conditioned us to think along these lines:
quote:
*** w73 7/1 p. 404 Praise Jehovah with His People ***
16 If we truly appreciate Jehovah's earthly organization, we will remain loyal to it, knowing that the organization is his. If we were to leave it, where else could we go? There is no other organization that is doing the divine will or that is educating people for life everlasting. When many abandoned Jesus Christ, he asked his apostles: "You do not want to go also, do you?" Peter replied: "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6:66-69)*** w74 7/15 p. 438 Have You Really Come to Know God? ***
21 Perhaps something is said in one of the Watch Tower publications that you do not grasp or that adjusts our previous understanding of matters. How do you view this? Will you allow doubts to creep in? Will confidence be replaced with skepticism? Ask yourself: 'Where did I gain the knowledge of the Scriptures that I already have? Has not the spiritual food provided through the Watch Tower publications helped me to change my life and find contentment and satisfaction? Where else would I go?' This is the feeling toward Jehovah's arrangements that the disciples had toward Jesus: "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life."-John 6:68.*** w96 2/1 p. 24 Trust in Jehovah and His Word ***
9 Stick closely to Jehovah and his organization. Loyally imitate Peter, who resolutely stated: "Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life." (John 6:52, 60, 66-68)Do you see the problem with this type of thinking? While Peter in John 6:68 said, "Whom shall we go away to," the organization has displaced Jesus with itself, asking, "Where else will you go?" So, really, if your zeal is the product of your faith and trust in Jesus Christ and Jehovah God, then it will not decline. But if it is at all the product of the organization, as the organization itself maintains it is, then your zeal likely will decline until you are able to derive it solely from the true source of Christian inspiration, Christ himself.
Don't get me wrong, this is still a very tough issue for all of us. Especially for those of us with families, and that is why no decision should be made in haste. But if we are guided by truth and by a desire to hold fast to what can be proven from the Bible, not by enforcing beliefs that are questionable as if they are unquestionable, we will surely not displease Jesus or Jehovah. My recommendation is simply to follow this course, and if you find that in so doing you can remain an active member of the Watchtower Society then that is what you should do. If not, then you should know that you do not need to go anywhere else. It is not a question of where you are, but to whom you are loyal, and 'where two or three are gathered in his name, there he will be, too' (Matthew 18:20).
Your brother,
Greg -
AGuest
Dearest Veripony and Greg, may you both have peace... and may I respond? Thank you!
Dearest Greg, in responding to Veripony's question, I must vehemently disagree with your response, as follows:
Don't get me wrong, this is still a very tough issue for all of us.
Unfortunately, your statement if false, as I will explain below.
Especially for those of us with families, and that is why no decision should be made in haste.
Family should not be the guiding force in matter's such as these, as many have found my Lord's words "he that has greater love for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me..." to be quite true. Because, for many, having greater "love" for father/mother, etc., is what got us enslaved TO the WTBTS organization... resulting in a turning AWAY... from Christ. Trust me on this, for I will explain such turning away below.
But if we are guided by truth and by a desire to hold fast to what can be proven from the Bible, not by enforcing beliefs that are questionable as if they are unquestionable, we will surely not displease Jesus or Jehovah.
First, I must say to you that IF one is "guided by the truth," one would not NEED an organization to worship God. Why is that so? Two reasons: (1) if one is guided by the Truth, then one is guided... by Christ himself:
John 8:32; John 14:6; John 8:36
Such one hears, not the voice of earthling MEN... in whom they were TOLD not to put their trust... but hear the voice of CHRIST, just as Christ himself said they would, and in doing so, obey GOD... and have NO other "leader(s)":
John 10:1-8, 27; Matthew 17:3; Matthew 23:10
You might say, as some do, that no one can hear the voice of Christ. I say to you, however, that such a statement makes the Christ a liar, does it not? For truly, just as he himself said, "My sheep HEAR MY VOICE," for such voice speaks to them "from heaven", which is "in [their] midst."
Hebrews 12:25
My recommendation is simply to follow this course, and if you find that in so doing you can remain an active member of the Watchtower Society then that is what you should do.
And yet, I say to YOU, that if one does not "separate" oneself and QUIT touching the UNCLEAN thing (for a LITTLE leaven ferments the WHOLE lump), then one will not be... cannot be... "taken in as sons and daughters."
For THIS is what it means to be a "virgin", to not "defile" oneself "with women,"... to separate oneself from the harlot, from Babylon the Great... and her daughters... false religion... under whatever guise it may come... even falsely calling itself "the truth", when in fact there is only ONE Truth... and falsely calling themselve "christs"... or anointed... when in fact they are FALSE prophets who have come on the scene to "mislead, if possible, EVEN the chosen ones."
If not, then you should know that you do not need to go anywhere else.
Indeed, for God does not dwell in handmade temples... whether they are called synagogues, churches... or kingdom halls. God spirit does NOT dwell in such places... for His spirit dwells... IN HIS TEMPLE... which is His PEOPLE... ISRAEL... meaning Abraham's seed of the flesh AND spirit... which are taken from "among the sons of Israel" and number 144,000... as well as those who are called "Israel" by MEANS of Spirit, those who "go with" such ones... a great crowd out of EVERY nation, tribe, tongue and people... who ALSO wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb and who ALSO 'render sacred service in His temple...' day and night!
1 Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:19-21; Revelation 7:4, 9-15
It is not a question of where you are
And yet, to some degree it IS, for who is it that said, "Get OUT of her, my people!?" The thing is, however, is that as you've said, there is no WHERE to "go away" to... but a WHOM! For there is One who said, "Come to ME... all you who are toiling and loaded down," and "Come to ME... all you who are thirsting..."
John 6:68; Matthew 11:28; John 7:37, 38
Indeed, there is only ONE from whom we can "drink"... and be satisfied... only ONE whose flesh we can "eat"... and be refreshed... only ONE... who can "save" a brother. ALL others are thieves and plunderers... false christs... imposters. ALL others. For there is only ONE... "copper serpent" that has been "lifted up" so that all that gaze upon HIM... although bitten by poisonous vipers... may yet live.
but to whom you are loyal
Which "loyalty" is DEMONSTRATED... by whom you OBEY... whose voice YOU listen to! You cannot slave for two masters... nor can you give your "allegiance" to two. God only has ONE mediator, Christ... and Christ... has none. True, there are "ambassadors substituting for Christ", but it is to HIM that they direct any others... and NOT to themselves, under ANY circumstances. For NO ONE can come to the Father... EXCEPT through Christ. And there is no one standing between earthling man... and Christ... except that man himself.
You do not need an organized religion of ANY type to worship God, for there is only ONE way to worship Him... IN SPIRIT... and ONE MEDIATOR through to worship in spirit... CHRIST... the "Truth".
'where two or three are gathered in his name, there he will be, too' (Matthew 18:20).
Indeed! And how do you know such ones? (1) By their love... and (2) by such 'gathering'. For "where the eagles gather... there the body is." In other words, where two or more come together to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ... there HE is... also.
But such 'gathering' is NOT in a temple made by human hands, synagogues and such, but is still today as it was then... in the homes of the Body of Christ. For where two or more members of that Body are gathered... there the Head of that Body is also.
I bid you the greatest of peace.
A slave of Christ,
SJ
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Phil
If you are not an aethiest you can go to almost any religion on earth. Go to the church, synagog, mosque or whatever listen to anything that does not pertain to doctrine and believe in yourself and you will have it made.
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Veronipony
Thankyou. When then asked if I think gods people are scattered here and there,
I don't know what to say.. I say yes. But then it seems that the JW org still is
superior in trying, so that it must be them. And that Gods people shouldn't be
scattered around. What bible things do I use to say that they can be. Or is
there a better org? I mean, this is what I've been having problems answering,
although i know that it is a bad org, and that I would never return to it.
Veronica
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Gopher
Veronica,
How about "whereever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am also"!! That would indicate that Jesus isn't tied to a particular building or organization, but to people.
Also you have the parable of the wheat and the weeds, and it says they'd be indistinguishable and would all grow together, and wouldn't be gathered together UNTIL THE JUDGMENT. So that indicates that there wouldn't be an official "Christian" organization as such (before the judgment).
Hope this might help.
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Veronipony
Phil, hi
I can't say go anywhere, or to any church, I will get the laughing treatment.
THere's gotto be something better than the JW org, what is it? Because
they will always see themselves closest to biblical truth..I don't know what
to say, still. I can show all the wrong in the world with the org, but they
do what matt.24:14 says and don't go to war.etc.. all the typical arguments.
Veronica (how do I change this double lining distance between my lines argh)?
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Veronipony
Gopher, hi.
The reply then is, well they're the ones using Gods name.. so everybody else
can't really care that much. about the weeds and wheat togethere untill the judgement,
why don't they know this? (where's the verses on this?) Now their blinking light
is that sheep and goats are not identifyed yet, and still they think that you have
to be in the JW org, as the place to be safe at the end, the bible talks about this
place where you'll be safe doesn't it?
Veronica
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Veronipony
It's just that they think that's the safEST place to be, or the only safe place.
V