when getting the reply 'where would we go?where does Gods people gather'?

by Veronipony 18 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Gopher

  Veronica,

  The "wheat and weeds" parable can be found at Matthew 13:24-30. Edited to add: Their 'current truth' (as I understand it) on this separation into wheat and weeds is that it isn't happening NOW but will happen when Jesus comes to separate the sheep from the goats.

  As far as the "we're using God's name" argument, there are 2 things I can think of: First we don't even know exactly what the divine name IS, we only have an approximation. So if they're putting faith in being "his name people", they'd better get the name straight. Yahweh is closer to the real pronounciation. Secondly, the Jewish temple was destroyed TWICE, first about 600 years before the common era, and again in 70 C.E. The Jews claimed that they had God's favor because of their temple/organization, and they sought security in being the people who had the tradition, and yes knew God's name! However, that did not save them from the Babylonians and then the Romans. So knowing and using God's name clearly isn't enough.

  You have to have the right conduct and teachings to back it up. If Jehovah were using this organization, would there be so much "blinking light" as you correctly call it? Would Jehovah tell his people before 1995 that the "generation" Jesus prophesied was a period of time, and then change his own mind and tell his people, no it's really a "group of wicked people" at the time of judgment? Is this the mark of an organization God is using, or is it the mark of a group of religious men, guessing their best just like every other religious group does?

  Also I'm sure you're familiar with the pedophile / coverup scandal currently being exposed in the media in one nation after another, due to the ridiculous "two eyewitness rule", as if a molestor/rapist will allow an eyewitness to their crime! Would Jesus wait until public pressure became so great that finally he had to change the rules within his "earthly organization" as they call it? Or again, is this the mark of a group of proud men who are making up their own rules as they go?

  Clearly using God's name is not enough. You've gotta have other marks of truth if you're going to get any credit with God.
• 

  Gopher

  But of course, none of the facts really matter when presented to a dyed-in-the-wool J-dub. They're the JW's, they are usually always right in their own mind, and they of course deserve to have the last word because of their status as God's "only true people".
• 

  AGuest

  Dearest Veronipony and Gopher... the greatest of peace to you!... and may I respond? Thank you!

  Verinopony, you ask:

  THere's got to be something better than the JW org, what is it?

  There is only ONE "thing"... and whether it is the ONLY thing better than the JW org is questionable. However, it is not a thing… but a WHOM. Dear one, there is no “where” to “go away” to… but only a “WHOM” to go away to! If you could find it in your heart to condescend and read the verses that I am permitted to post, you yourself may come to know the Truth... so that he can set YOU free! For once you know the Truth... and are known by HIM... you WILL be set free... even from false "christs" (anointed) and false prophets and imposters, who "shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men"... because they themselves are not going in!

  John 6:63; John 8:32; John 14:6; John 8:36; Matthew 24:24; Matthew 23:13; John 6:51-53

  Because they will always see themselves closest to biblical truth..I don't know what The reply then is,

  Dear one, there is no "biblical truth!" There is only ONE Truth... and the Bible is simply a "tutor" leading TO that One, until one is "found" by that One. You cannot rely, then, on the Bible and its contents… nor the ones who write about it… even as the BIBLE ITSELF says!

  John 14:6; John 10:7, 8, 27; Jeremiah 8:8

  well they're the ones using Gods name..

  Indeed, they are NOT using God’s name, but rather, a false phonetic rendition of four (4) vowels… “JHWH” or “JHVH”… which are CORRECTLY rendered “JaHWeH”… or “JaHVeH” and is CORRECTLY pronounced IN HEBREW… as “YaHVeh” (not "YahWeh", as the “J” - or “yodh” - in Hebrew sounds like a “y”… and the “w” in Hebrew sounds like a “v”. Think “halleluJah”… pronounced “a-le-loo-Yah" and “ManescheWitz”… pronounced “man-i-sheV-itz”!)

  JaH… “Yah”… WeH… “Veh”. JaHVeH. The name of the Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob... whose NAME is "JAH... of Armies ," which is what the term “JahVeh” means: “Jah… who causes armies to become”… or “Jah… who brings into existence armies.” Th us, rather than Psalm 87:18, His TRUE name can be found at:

  Psalm 68:4

  First we don't even know exactly what the divine name IS, we only have an approximation. So if they're putting faith in being "his name people", they'd better get the name straight. Yahweh is closer to the real pronounciation.

  Ah, but we CAN know, dear Gopher, by means of the One who "declares" the name of the Father TO us! And please know that “His Name People” would be named after His SON… who was named AFTER HIM, thus:

  His first name being “JahE’Shua”… meaning “Jah Saves”… or “Jah’s Salvation”… or “Salvation of Jah”… and in ENGLISH is NOT “Jesus”… but JOSHUA, pronounced “Yah-e-Shua” (with the e’shua being rapidly stated so as to come out “Yah-Shua”…

  And his surname being “Mischa-Jah”… meaning “chosen” or “anointed” of Jah… pronounced “Mee-sha-Yah”… or in ENGLISH “me-si-yah”… and which, in Greek is the SAME as “Cristos”… or “Christ” (anointed or chosen one).

  Thus, my Lord is named: JahE’Shua (Jah Saves) MischaJah (chosen/anointed of Jah). Today, many believe that “people for God’s name” are called “Christians”… which means… “[Christ] people/persons” or “chosen/anointed people". I, too, believed, very recently even. However, my Lord has revealed to me that this, too, is not quite accurate in that the word "christian" does not denote "chosen of" WHOM?

  T hose, then, who are called to be “a people for GOD’S name"… are called to be “MischaJahs” or "mischi'jah'im" (Messiahs of Jah, pronounced "mee-sha-ya-eem") which has been misrendered as “Cristos” (chosen/anointed) in Greek… and “Christians”…. (Christ people) in English. Truly, a LOT gets lost and/or mixed up when being translated from one language to another… or several others.

  And that is one of reasons why the non-"christian" world cannot seem to understand the so-called "christian" world and their actions. I would say then, "christian"... chosen... even anointed... yes. But chosen... and anointed... by WHOM?

  Mark 13:22

  Clearly using God's name is not enough.

  And yet, at times it can be! For God’s name was not made known to Moses before he was “called” by God. Nor was His name invoked by the woman with the flow of blood, the Army officer whose servant was ill, Jairus, the widow of Nain… or the Samaritan woman.

  You've gotta have other marks of truth if you're going to get any credit with God.

  Yes, and there are at least two (2): Faith… to the preserving alive of the SOUL… and LOVE… of God, Christ, neighbor… and enemy. By these, one PROVES oneself to be a son of their heavenly Father. There is one other, as well... and that is hope.

  Matthew 5:43-48

  Again, I bid you the greatest of peace… as well as ears to hear what the Spirit… and the Bride… KEEP saying, contrary to the teachings of the WTBTS, and that is:

  “Come! Take life’s water… free!”

  Your servant and a slave of Christ,SJ
• 

  Veronipony

  hi again

  you say is this mistaken org Gods org? The reply I get then is that the deciples and first

  christians were also wrong and stuped to conclutions. There's always a backup answer and

  it's driving me nuts. Using His name by the letter is not a good enough argument, as language

  barriers always makes different ways of pronouncing names..and that they indeed are the

  only ones concerned about HIS name at all. It is not all that matters, knowing the name, they

  too agree to that. Pedophile coverups, they don't blame the org, and it is just one of the shitty

  things about the org, that they follow that phariseeran rule of two eyewitnesses before anything

  is done. But they aren't wrong, as they say, for following the bible.. I know it's yekky and I

  can't make them think that they should leave the org, their meetings and magazines just to

  sit there alone with the knowledge. That is the most impossible thing, that they're so linked

  to the org, which means linked to the GB (adolatry, even, but still). Etc etc..

  But the Temple of the Jews argument is really good. But the temple WAS still Gods

  buildings, like they think the org is. So it goes nowhere to mention it.

  Veronica
• 

  NameWithheld

  Veronipony

  You cannot and will not ever 'win' a JW. They must beleive that they are right, because the instant they allow themselves to think otherwise, their entire world crashes down. The important thing here is to allow yourself to see through the JW arguments for what they are - pure bluster.

  THEY say that they are the only ones preaching.

  THEY say they are closest to 'bible truth'.

  THEY say that they are using 'god's name'.

  THEY say that the GB is god's mouthpeice.

  THEY say that the only way to 'salvation' is by following them.

  Do you really think that if god were using one group, and that group were JWs, that he would make it a bit clearer? That he would make them stand above the rest of humanity more? That the bible would point plainly to them? But no, when things like child molestation, false prophesy, UN involvment, etc come up then they are "imperfect men" - BUT you had better follow ever command of these "imperfect men" because god is using them and speaking through them? I personally don't think so!

  Also, the one big fall back they always go to is Matt 'preach command' and the claim that THEY are the only ones doing this world wide. This is a) a self-fulfilling prophesy (they are forceing 'fulfillment' by counting hours). b) basically false. Christains as a whole (all christain religions) have blanketed the earth far more effectively than JWs have. We won't even get into the facts that the JW preaching work is grossly inefective, a huge waste of time. If JWs think that THEY alone are going to fulfill this command, then they are doing a piss-poor job of it. The world population is growing a MUCH faster rate than JWs can knock on their doors.

  Again, that's saying god is relying on people's response to a JW door knock to determine wether or not to kill that person. Not a very fair system. What is your reaction if, lets say a Moonie were to knock on your door at 8:30 AM? You send him away? Ah but WHAT IF - Moonies are right and you just in 30 seconds forefitted your right to life. Not very fair huh?

  Every group thinks that they have 'truth'. And they can all 'prove' it using their various holy book(s).
• 

  Xander

  Using His name by the letter is not a good enough argument, as language barriers always makes different ways of pronouncing names..and that they indeed are the only ones concerned about HIS name at all.

  Not so true.

  Consider James 2:19

  But they aren't wrong, as they say, for following the bible

  Well, the question you must ask yourself is if the bible has any value at all on its own.

  What prophecies has it made that have EVER come true? What scientific merit does it have? What 'family values' does it impose that have any real merit?

  Even outside of all that, what is its history? Isn't is curious that the JWs use the EXACT SAME New Testament books as the Protestants? Who use the EXACT SAME books as the Catholics? Only four gospels were written? Surely, if the son of god came down to earth, more than 4 people would have written about it! (And, you will find, there are MANY more than 4 'gospels', so why does everyone's bible only contain Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? What happened to the rest of them? And, most importantly, who picked those four? The answer will amaze you.)

  Etc, etc.

  An interesting site:

  http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
• 

  Gamaliel

  I'm sure it's been said, but a simple answer is:

  ...wherever two or three are gathered in his (Jesus) name.

  I personally take that to mean that a good spirit is upon those who meet anywhere to share the same upbuilding ideas and example that Jesus tried to convey. It doesn't mean church or preaching, unless you feel that's your calling.

  As to the only religion preaching the good news, and preaching no war, God's name, etc. Those things have to taken one at a time. Deep down, every JW knows better than to even consider examining a belief of theirs critically. Some will go so far as to accept that there is one thing wrong, but in general therefore it's still the best. They will definitely turn on you if you try to bring up three or more ideas at once.

  For now I'll just take on the Matthew 24:14 idea. They may think they are preaching the good news but even Russell wrote that if the object of Christ's Return was to destroy 99% of mankind then it wasn't good news and therefore wasn't what Jesus meant for us to preach. Of course, one thing Russell still got wrong, along with every JW since, was the motivation for the preaching work. Jesus said in Luke to reject those preaching "The Time Is At Hand." Yet that was exactly what Russell called volume II of Studies in the Scriptures. It's been a major theme of the preaching for 120 years.

  JWs are therefore not preaching good news and their theme is unscriptural.

  Gamaliel
• 

  ARoarer

  Veronipony,

  Hi, I understand your frustration with the JW mentality about "where else to go". I myself, have tried to think critically on this and have found a comfortable answer for myself. I have learned to say to those arguments that I don't believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are the only true "Christian followers of God". Obviously thier argument of "impefect men" does not allow for the false prophecies, everchanging doctrines, elder corruption, and sexual misconduct, child abuse, etc. If that were the case then the scripture in Revelation that addresses the congregations Ephesus, Laodacia, Thessolinica etc. shows that thought they were followers of Christ they were guilty of idolatry, immorality, lack of love and other sins. In this light we can see that every Christian religion, Catholic, Protestant and others, including Jehovah's Witnesses fall into this catagory. I do not believe any organized religion is 100% accurate and without sin, especially JW's. But I do believe that the core teaching of Christ was love of God and our fellow man. Neither governments, nor angels or anything can separate us from God's love. Not even JW's. Not forsaking gathering together is not simply for JW's. We can gather together and encourage and upbuild when 2 or more are gathered in Jesus name. I don't think that it is exclusively in a kingdom hall with only JW's. Although I don't agree with following just an organized religion, I do feel that organized religions provide the environment to "gather and encourage" in a wholesome Christian way though charitable works and community involvement. Going to any church gives us that sense of community. I have not been back to any organized religion or a church. I am not ready for that. But I still don't think it is wrong, or apostate to go and encourge and be spiritually upbuilt by a Christian based discussion in any church community. Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be argued with for the most part. So you are better off following what you feel deep in your gut, what is right for you and uncomfortable for you. That voice deep inside never lies if we learn to hear it without JW vieling fo shame,blame, guilt, fear, and punishment tactics. They are so unlike what Christ taught. As for the name of Jehovah, they do not have a monopoly on that either. It was there in the King James Bible long before they found it. But in the NT Jesus focused not on his personal name but taught "in his name". A different context in which name is used. An example could be in the sayings "stop in the name of love," or "open in the name of the law" , so Jesus preached his Good News "in the name of his Father" is how I believe, in the name of his Fathers purposes and in the name of his Father's love. His Father's name means I will prove to be, I am that I am, and I believe Jehovah's Witnesses have missed the whole point of God. They have made the Watchtower thier "golden calf" and call it Jehovah and dance around it in thier frenzy of useless works. They are living a lie based on many lies. And thier gathering together with one another is done in superficial love. I for one can think of many places to go besides with Jehovah's Witesses.
• 

  ozziepost

  Most dubs misapply these recored words of Peter as "where else have we to go?" That's nice and convenient but it isn't true! The words are "whom shall we go away to?" (John 6:68) This makes quite a difference, doesn't it? So an exiting dub can say "I'm not turning my back on Jehovah." without feeling they've disowned their christian beliefs.

  Cheers, Ozzie