Sisters may pursue church case-Another Blow to the WT

by DevonMcBride 70 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

Jonadab

Hawkaw, I never said that I knew all about all the facts of the trial. You still assume a lot and continue to be abusive even though I have not returned your abuse. I have not lied, nor have I made any attempt to be misleading in any of my questions. To my knowledge I haven't made any false accusations about the Berry case. I may not know all the facts, but neither do you. As far as my comments about Vicki's trial I have not knowingly made any false statements. You have only accused me of knowing more than I do and lying about hiding facts I didn't know. Shame on you.
Gee I can hardly wait for your comments on the Mike Moss scandal up in the Sault Ste. Marie
I don't know who Mike Moss is, nor have I heard about any 'scandal' in the Soo. (BTW, Glen How's name does not have an 'e' on the end)
I am aware that Frank and some of the other elders wanted to report the abuse. I also know that it is according to Society directives that elders phone Bethel to get legal directions when an accusation of abuse is reported to them. What were the reporting laws at the time? If the law stated that the elders were responsible to report the abuse and Bethel told them not to I would like to know the reason why they gave this advice. I don't see a conflict between God's law and that of Caesar.
I personally know of a case where an accusation was made (older teenaged boy accused of exposing himself to young girl and making her touch his penis). There were no witnesses to the incident (naturally), so it was a case of his word against hers. Bethel was called and the PO was told to tell the parents that there was nothing they could do, scripturally speaking. It was up to the parents to pursue it if they chose to. The boy's parents still don't know about the accusation. That was ten years ago.
ALL of Gower's privileges were re-instated and then he was allowed more privileges in the congregation - my understanding is he pioneered but did not move to MS or elder.
A publisher may pioneer only after one year has passed since a reproof has been given. That is the current rule. For a brother to be appointed as an elder or ministerial servant he would have to "be irreprehensible, . . . have a fine testimony from people on the outside, . . . [be] free from accusation" (1 Timothy 3:1-7, 10; Titus 1:7). Enough time would have had to elapse from the time of the sin for him to live down notoriety in the community. This does not apply to a child molester though.
w97 1/1 p. 29 Let Us Abhor What Is Wicked
For the protection of our children, a man known to have been a child molester does not qualify for a responsible position in the congregation. Moreover, he cannot be a pioneer or serve in any other special, full-time service.
Several newspaper articles said that...
Meanwhile, with the remaining elders convinced of his "spiritual repentance," Boer's father, Gower Palmer, rose through the ranks and enjoyed a level of privilege within the congregation normally reserved for the most respected members, said Momm. Canadian Press, Sep. 22, 2002
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/
By JAMES MCCARTEN
How could it be said that he 'rose through the ranks'? We don't have ranks. We have privileges of service, but that doesn't make one person better than another. Gower doesn't qualify for these privileges of service either.
I have been aware for some time that there were 'troubles' in the Shelburne congregation. I didn't know what it was all about until the trial started though. I've never met Frank Mott-Trille personally, but I do know many people who have used his legal services over the years. He always seemed to be quite competent.
hawkaw

For those lurking .. do you notice that Jon says that he doesn't know everything but low and behold he can suddenly bring up a CP article on the issue.
You are still flipping around like a fish on the dock. Telling the board you are not "knowingly" lying and are not making attempts to mislead people. What a joke. This from a guy who is allowed by doctrine to purposely "lie by omission" (aka theocratic warfare).
You were the one who doesn't have any problem spewing out falsehoods that its all the elders fault when these terrible events happen. And now look at your last post ... low and behold .... you are NOW admitting that you actually knew that a lot of the Shelburne elders wanted to do the right thing and report the abuse. Your actions on this db show that you knew the elders wanted to do the right thing, that you knew headquarters was calling the shots and yet you posted your statement that its all the elders fault.
Flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ....
You were the one telling the Board that Holly was being dishonest when the record shows Attorney Brown was impressed with her honesty. Never mind the fact you completely ignored all the physical evidence that was present at the Berry trial.
Now look at you ... Is the best you can do is try to argument shift???? Start spewing out of your little head that JWs have privileges but not ranks .....
Well let me tell you this ....
Gower Palmer admited (kinda) to the sexual assualt of his own daughter in front of elders.
And what happened???? After a short while he was allowed MORE privileges and WAS ADORED by the congregation.
All the while Vicki was labelled and shunned by the congregation. A rape victim being called numerous nasty names behind her back and slammed. Treated like a slut. Why? Because the congregation didn't know how her own father really treated her, what sexual abuse does to a person mentally and what Judicial Committees with untrained elders do to rape victims.
Call it privileges or call it moving up or what ever "special word" you can come up with
The POINT IS your little group, lead by your leadership (that you believe is your mediator to God), decided to embrace a paedophile and slam and mentally re-raped a Survivor .... who by the way was another JW.
Do you friggin well get it yet?????
hawk
p.s. - Its too bad you don't take the issue of how your leadership's policies harm little kids as seriously as how I made a spelling mistake with someone's name.
Jonadab

For those lurking .. do you notice that Jon says that he doesn't know everything but low and behold he can suddenly bring up a CP article on the issue.

The quoted CP article was in the newspapers last fall. That's when I read it. The newspapers didn't give all the facts of this case, nor have I seen a transcript of the trial. But you keep right on going and twist everything I say hawkaw. That seems to be your style.
You were the one who doesn't have any problem spewing out falsehoods that its all the elders fault when these terrible events happen. And now look at your last post ... low and behold .... you are NOW admitting that you actually knew that a lot of the Shelburne elders wanted to do the right thing and report the abuse.
I never said that it was all the elders doing what happened to Vicki. Yes, I did know from the newspapers that a number of the Shelburne elders wanted to report the abuse. That was included in the news reports too. My comments regarding elders was not specific to the case in Shelburne. It was a general comment regarding personal experiences that I have had and seen. If you had read my post properly you would have seen that and not twisted my words and misapplied them for your own use.
For the record I said:
I don't always agree with the things that elders do. I have had some serious disagreements with elders at times. On the other hand, despite the failings and imperfections of elders, I cannot reject the truth that this is still Jehovah's organization. Imperfect men make mistakes. Sometimes there are elders who abuse their power. Sometimes priorities get mixed up.
Next...
You were the one telling the Board that Holly was being dishonest when the record shows Attorney Brown was impressed with her honesty. Never mind the fact you completely ignored all the physical evidence that was present at the Berry trial.

The physical abuse you mentioned was in regard to the son. To my knowledge there was never any physical evidence presented to prove that sexual abuse of the girls ever took place. If you have knowledge of specific physical evidence presented at trial that proves that the sexual abuse took place I would be very glad to know about it. Do you have doctor's reports? Perhaps you know of DNA samples? Attorney Brown may well have been impressed by Holly's honesty, but were the girls or their mother given polygraph tests? Not that I am aware of. Paul Berry was given a polygraph test, I was told...and passed it.
Flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ....
It seems that you're doing quite a bit of flip-flopping. How long did it take you to type that out? BTW, I said that I didn't know whether you had ever been one of Jehovah's Witnesses. You never responded to that, so I must assume from your lack of knowledge about Jehovah's Witnesses that the answer must be NO. Next...back to your statement "And then a few months later Gower is moving up in the congregation " To my request for what you meant by the term 'moving up in the congregation' you replied...
ALL of Gower's privileges were re-instated and then he was allowed more privileges in the congregation - my understanding is he pioneered but did not move to MS or elder.
After time has passed and a show of repentance has been seen privileges such as answering at meetings, handling parts on the program or offering prayers at the meetings are returned progressively. Am I correct in assuming that Gower was publicly reproved as opposed to privately reproved? I am quite surprised that he wasn't disfellowshipped given the seriousness of the sin, the length of time he allowed to pass before finally 'confessing' and his reluctance to admit guilt.
After a short while he was allowed MORE privileges and WAS ADORED by the congregation.
MORE privileges??? Please be specific. ADORED by the congregation? Really? Why on earth would he be adored?
Because the congregation didn't know how her own father really treated her
I guess they know now. I wonder how the congregation views him now? One question I would really like you to answer hawkaw is if you think that Gower Palmer, if truly repentant, deserves forgiveness by God? In other words, do you feel that Gower has committed an unforgivable sin?
jgnat

One can be forgiven and still face a lifetime of consequences for past actions. My ex-husband beat me. I forgave him. But to this day I refuse to be in the same room with him. Guess why.
Abusers use the doctrine of forgiveness to maintain the cycle of abuse.
Uzzah

Jonadab:
I think the problem with your rationalization of all this is that you, like the body of elders are viewing child molestation as a sin.
We (JW's) did the same thing up through the 70's and even early 80's when it came to mental illness, elders oftened viewed it as demon possession not an illness. It has only been in relatively recent years that mental health professionals have become "acceptable" for a choice of treatment by Witnesses but even now caution is still given about discussing Society matters with them.
Paedophilia and child abuse is not a spiritual matter. It is a mental sickness and a criminal matter. This sickness does not simply go away with more prayer and meeting attendance or other obscure evidence of repentance. There are not any cure-alls for this illness either so the best option is to keep them away from children and fom positions where they will be put in contact with children.
But what does the Society do? Lets em carry mikes but will never hold a 'position' (aka privilege of service). Demands that they go out in service (hmmm mental note 123 Main Street, kids home alone hmmmmm) and having been an elder I know for a fact that there was no such formalized arrangement as is purported by the Society for child abusers to be accompanied at all times while out in service. And even if it is now a policy, what training has been given to the one observing? Absolutely none.
I am not certain if you have kids but based on your comments I don't think you do. If you know Shelbourne so well I presume you are in Ontario. Did you know that last summer's assembly in London there were 4 paedophiles walking the hallways? Only the elders know who they were. So the bible studies who brought their families to the district assembly, the fatherless boys in the congregation (ya you know the vulnerable ones?!?! that Jesus mandated we care for) are all walking around in complete ignorance of the very real threat of these four child rapists.
In case you haven't done so, I suggest doing some research into the recovery rate of child abusers. I'll give you a hint, they are almost all going to become repeat offenders, which means more childrens' lives will be destroyed. Then come back and tell me the Society (yeah the ORGANIZATION) is handling this properly.
More food for thought. In the 90's, Canada Legal on average fielded over 40-50 calls per year from elders regarding separate child abuse cases. That means from 1990-2000 that is approx 400 - 500 allegations of child abuse over a 10 year period in an organization of 110,000 publishers. You do the math and try to tell me this isn't a real problem. Statistically, in Canada that means in every 2 congregations there is one alleged child abuser. (approx) I can also guarantee you that up to 2 years ago, not every one of those allegations were reported despite it being a law in every Province to do so.
Also keep in mind the very human tendancy to slant your perception of what you read to fit with your current belief system. It sounds like when you read these newspaper articles you are doing so to solidify your current belief as opposed to actually determine the facts. Yes I realize this danger for me too but try to read without the bias.
Think of some child you know, if not your own. Look at those figures. Think of how the Society views and handled these situations. Can you honestly tell me that you think Jehovah finds this acceptable? His son Jesus demonstrated teh love we are to have for children. To force an 8 year old to testify in front of 3 elders and the abuser himself about all the things he did to her/him. Is this loving? Is this something Jesus would have insisted on? More like the Pharisees don't you think?
What message is being given to the child who was abused when in 6 months or a year, they see their abuser handling microphones (a privilege!!! granted to exemplary borthers only). Why is the spiritual privileges of a man more important than the spirituality and mental health of a child?
Uzzah
Scully

Uzzah writes:
Think of some child you know, if not your own. Look at those figures. Think of how the Society views and handled these situations. Can you honestly tell me that you think Jehovah finds this acceptable? His son Jesus demonstrated teh love we are to have for children. To force an 8 year old to testify in front of 3 elders and the abuser himself about all the things he did to her/him. Is this loving? Is this something Jesus would have insisted on? More like the Pharisees don't you think?
What message is being given to the child who was abused when in 6 months or a year, they see their abuser handling microphones (a privilege!!! granted to exemplary brothers only). Why is the spiritual privileges of a man more important than the spirituality and mental health of a child?
Don't forget that a person's being able to qualify as "exemplary" in the congregation requires that he/she engage in the door-to-door ministry. Engaging in the door-to-door ministry is the minimum Privilege TM a JW can have, and their being given other Privileges TM are contingent upon their performance in the house-to-house work (in terms of hours, RVs and placements). If you do not engage in the door-to-door ministry, you simply will not qualify to handle microphones, control the sound system, offer prayers at meetings, pioneer, give parts on the meetings, etc.
In addition, there is nothing to stop a JW paedophile who wants to stalk children from putting on a suit, picking up a briefcase full of Watchtowers, hopping in his car and stopping in a neighbourhood outside a school between 2:30 and 4pm in the afternoon when kids are making their way home from school, and many parents are not home to supervise them or the people who come to the door. Is there??
Love, Scully
simplesally

Why did the Society pay for Berry's defense and how would that information have come out?
Also, I think it disgusting to put the children "on trial" as it were. I think its disgusting that they would ever have to even sit in the same Kingdom Hall with their abuser. The abuser should be forced to either attend a different hall or via telephone, but protect that child's mind, body and feelings at all costs!!
Jonadab

My ex-husband beat me. I forgave him. But to this day I refuse to be in the same room with him. Guess why.

I can't say that I blame you jgnat. Here are a couple of quotations regarding forgiving...
w94 9/15 p. 6 Why Be Forgiving? In the Bible genuine repentance involves a sincere change in attitude, a heartfelt regret over any wrongs committed. Where appropriate and possible, repentance is accompanied by an effort to make restitution to the victim of the sin.

w97 12/1 pp. 19-20 ‘Continue Forgiving One Another Freely’
When It Seems Impossible to Forgive
15
What, though, if others sin against us in a way that inflicts the deepest of wounds, and yet there is no acknowledgment of the sin, no repentance, and no apology on the part of the offender? (Proverbs 28:13) The Scriptures clearly indicate that Jehovah does not forgive unrepentant, hardened sinners. (Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26, 27) What about us? Insight on the Scriptures says: "Christians are not required to forgive those who practice malicious, willful sin with no repentance. Such become God’s enemies." (Volume 1, page 862) No Christian who has been a victim of extremely unjust, detestable, or heinous treatment should feel forced to forgive, or pardon, a wrongdoer who is not repentant.—Psalm 139:21, 22.
16
Understandably, those who have been victims of cruel mistreatment may feel hurt and angry. However, recall that holding on to anger and resentment can be very harmful to us. Waiting for an admission or apology that never comes, we may only get more and more upset. Being obsessed with the injustice may keep the anger seething within us, with devastating effects on our spiritual, emotional, and physical health. In effect, we allow the one who hurt us to continue hurting us. Wisely, the Bible advises: "Let anger alone and leave rage." (Psalm 37:8) Some Christians, therefore, have found that in time they were able to make a decision to forgive in the sense of ceasing to harbor resentment—not excusing what happened to them, but refusing to be consumed with anger. Leaving the matter squarely in the hands of the God of justice, they experienced much relief and were able to get on with their lives.—Psalm 37:28.
Abusers use the doctrine of forgiveness to maintain the cycle of abuse.
Very true. This wouldn't be true repentance then would it? There is no need to forgive where the abuse continues.
Scully

Jonadab:
Perhaps you can explain how the concept of Works Befitting Repentance TM in the case of child sexual abuse can exclude an apology to the person(s) who have been harmed by the abuser.
Love, Scully
Jonadab

Scully: No argument from me. What you stated is quite true.
Uzzah: Child molestation as a sin against the child and a sin against God. It is also a crime in the eyes of the law. Under the Mosaic law it was deserving of death.
Leviticus 18:6, 29
6
"‘YOU people must not come near, any man of YOU, to any close fleshly relative of his to lay bare nakedness. I am Jehovah.....
29
In case anyone does any of all these detestable things, then the souls doing them must be cut off from among their people.

Uzzah: You said that "Paedophilia and child abuse is not a spiritual matter. It is a mental sickness and a criminal matter."
I will partially agree with you. Sexual abuse of a child is against the law and may become a criminal matter if it is reported by an adult or the child to the authorities. A parent may decide that it would do their child more harm than good to report the abuse, especially if there is no physical proof to support the child's word. An adult who had been a victim of child abuse may decide not to pursue the matter.
I do not agree that it can be said to be mental sickness in the majority of cases. It certainly is an unnatural desire.
I also disagree with your statement that it is not a spiritual matter. Any serious sin is a spiritual matter.
g81 2/8 p. 18 Incest—The Hidden Crime
Then
Why Do They Do It?
Some adults who turn to incest are psychotic. Most are not, however. They may be apparently good family men, business or community leaders, even good churchgoers.
Why do such "ordinary people" commit incest? Loss of control due to alcohol has been involved. Sometimes, a man marries a woman who already has children. As his stepchildren get older, he may be tempted sexually.
Family problems can contribute. Hank Giarretto says: "Usually it’s a man losing his job or going through a low-ebb period in his life. He and his wife become alienated. The father reaches out to his daughter, looking for closeness. She is open to him, loves him, thinks he’s great. The first overtures are not sexual."
There may be additional causes. One incest victim told how pornographic literature was always present in the house. Giarretto adds: "It’s the sexual climate of our society which helps create the problem. We teach our girls to be Lolitas and sexual provocateurs from the time they’re 2."
An adult committing incest with a child betrays selfishness. He shows no concern at all for the welfare of the child. Yet, in a world that encourages us to ‘do our own thing’ and promotes such perversions as child pornography, is it surprising that cases of incest are on the increase?
To answer another one of your questions, yes, I do have children. I was also not in the habit of allowing them to roam around the convention site without supervision when they were younger. You don't know who is wandering around at these conventions.
I am well aware of the high incidence of repeat offenders.
Slant perception while reading? I think we are all prone to that. I endeavor to see both sides and view matters in the light of the scriptures. All the same I am just as guilty of this as anyone else.
The figures you gave from Canada Legal are frightening, if accurate. I would also like to mention that not all of those reports would have been about baptized members of the congregation. Included too would be unbaptized ones associated with the congregation and non-Witness relatives of members. Just the same it is frightening. We as Jehovah's Witnesses are prone to be more trusting of people and a little naive when it comes to the evil things that go on in the world.
As regards the last two paragraphs in your post I do see your point.

Sisters may pursue church case-Another Blow to the WT

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