Does God define "right and wrong" or is there an intrinsic 'good' ?

by Simon 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Simon

  I don't personally believe in a 'God' but I wonder for those who do ...

  Is there an intrinsic "right and wrong" or moral code that would exist whether or not there was a God?

  To put it another way, is what we believe is "right or wrong" based on whatever God decides is right or wrong (ie. he set's the standard) or is it an intrinisc thing that he also must adhere to in order to be thought of as 'good'.

  If God has to adhere and go along with some intrinsic value system then does this effect any claims to be omnipotent and always good? ie. can he do certain things or go against this set of values.

  If it's the opposite and whatever he decides is good or bad actually becomes 'good and bad' for us then where does this leave our free will? If 'fight and maime' for instance became the right thing to do, would our objecting to do it make us bad and evil?

  Am I making sense?!
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  Farkel

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/4252/1.ashx

  Farkel
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  Satanus

  I believe there is a something out there, and everywhere that has been construed as 'god'. I often think that i can sense this. It could very well be that it is all, that all that is, is it. We have just forgotten. If that is so, then what we commonly call bad or evil is also it. Further, if all is god, then underneath the surface chaos there is a unity, a flow, a way (tao). The whole universe is a part of this . Taoism is a study of how it flows and how to harmonise w it.

  In this paradigm, everyone is intrinsically good, as everyone in his true self is god. All the surface problems and crap (extrinsic stuff) is not really us, but stuff we created to experiment w, or learn from. We get ourselves stuck/lost in our creations so easily, and it takes multiple incarnations to rise above, again, to where we were. Some people say it's all good (i'm not sure).

  SS
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  AlanF

  Most believers want to have it both ways. They want to be able to say that God defines the standard of good and evil, but also that a standard exists by which believers are to compare God's actions against and then judge that he is very, very good. They don't see the inconsistency: If God defines good and evil, and he acts consistently with his definition (he must, or his creatures could call him a hypocrite), then all that is being said is that God acts the way God acts, and however he acts, is by definition "good". This is entirely unhelpful.

  AlanF
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  blackout

  I think there is an intrinsic right and wrong, you can see it in that all the basics of religion are the same, like do unto others, etc. Even without god it would be the same.
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  Satanus

  everyone in his true self is god

  This can be experimented with. Using meditation, one can learn to detatch (not destroy) from thoughts and feelings, then focus on what is left, then detatch again, and so on until there is nothing left. This shows one what one is. Each can check for himself the results. Faith is not required. What is that saying? Know thyself - solomon freud.

  SS
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  blackout

  Farkel, read your other thread on is god a jerk or a dogs body.

  Of course you were totally right, it has to be one or the other, either god makes the rules or is subject to them.

  Very good, liked it a lot, you are my hero!!

  I think the god of the bible is a jerk (an arbitrary god), but I think that the REAL god if there is one is subject to intrinsic laws of right and wrong.

  Simon, thanks once again for a great site, It is so enlightening, I have learned more here in a few weeks than I have previously learned in my whole life.
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  Simon

  you're welcome blackout - I'm learning a lot too.

  Thanks for the link to the previous topic farkel that I posted on but had forgotton completely - it must be old age
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  freedom96

  I think without a doubt that there is an inner sense of good and bad. Regardless of a belief in God.
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  starScream

  God has a Holy nature. God cannot violate his own nature. Telling a lie violates his nature. Therefore God cannot lie. This is one example of an intrinsic moral rule.

  It seems that there are some rules God must follow simply because his very nature precludes it and not because he simply decided it was so, although I'm sure he would conciously agree.

  Since God is God he is rightly in the position to give orders and require obedience. Therefore he cannot also make up rules that should be followed. If someone chooses to not follow a rule it would violate God's sense of justice since he is rightly in the position of authority and only pride would allow someone to think that they could possibly know better than God.

  I don't think I have proven it very thoroughly in this little space but it seems that almost everything that is considered good ultimately is beyond the active control of God and depends on the very senses of God.

  If we lose a loved one we are hurt. This is not because we want to be hurt. It is just fundamental to our nature that we will be hurt. This is how I think of what morality ultimately comes down to with God.