hmmmm....yeah, what Xander said ( I sure can't say it any better ). I always wondered that if we were made in the image of god, then how come all this human suffering bothers me, yet doesn't bother him? hmmmmm......maybe because he doesn't exist? I sure don't have the answers, but if there is a god, then who can give me a real answer to why he allows such suffering? The witness answer never washed with me, and neither has any other answer.
*Dizzy* Christianity - Fraudulent and Evil Rotten - from beginning to end
by Xander 53 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Satanus
Hoob
What aspect of paganism did diocletian disprove?
SS
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hooberus
I wasn't saying that Diocletian actually disproved any aspect of paganism. I was merely using the same logic as those who imply that the Mideval Roman Catholic Church disproves Christianity.
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Xander
then wouldn't the crimes of Pagan roman leaders like Diocletian disprove paganism
Pagans don't all worship the same god. And not all pagan gods are lovy-dovey, either (IE., they don't CLAIM to be gods of love).
'Crimes' of the Aztecs in worshipping their sun god leaves the same results. Either, their god: (and I'm quoting my exact text from above here):
does NOT exist at all, exists and is powerless to actually DO anything, or exists and gets great pleasure out of watching human suffering.
In that case, I think 'C' is a possible valid answer.
the Mideval Roman Catholic Church disproves Christianity
But, it's not a valid comparison. The Roman Catholic Church claims that was the sole representative on earth on the one, single, all powerful god of the universe, and that their torture devices were used in his name (implied, of course, by his will).
No pagan religion or ceremony makes any kind of claims so bold. Many worship a god that DOES enjoy human suffering. But, he doesn't claim to do otherwise. Certainly doesn't claim to be the one and only all-powerful god of the universe made of love.
Surely, there are some pagan religions who claim to worship a god of love then do obscene things in said god's name. Does the fact that the god being profaned doesn't intervene disprove said god exists? It may well, but that doesn't undermine paganism at all, as the very foundation of the orientation is that there are MANY gods/deities.
It DOES, however, if the religion is claiming the god they are profaning through their actions is the only one, and actually supports them. Like, say, christians.
Either, the christian god REALLY DID support the Roman Catholic Church when it was tearing up the insides of a woman with "Pope's Pears" or starting a crusade or scalding the flesh of someone to get a 'conversion'.....OR, said god doesn't actually exist or have any power to defend its name.
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Xander
As an illustration. You maintain god exists, but had nothing to do with these tortures.
Suppose a group of children went about a city. Sodomizing people with a knife, say. As a victimized homeless person lay here bleeding to death, the child was sure to proclaim loudly that you, their father (even though you may well not be), commanded them to do this in a letter you sent them. The whole group keeps doing this for some time, without being caught. Of course, you know all about it (see, in this illustration, you are the all-knowing and all-powerful god). Indeed, you knew this was going to happen long before it started (foreknowing, remember). And, lo and behold, you know where the group is hiding out.
Do you take any action to stop this? Turn them in? Something? Before it started? No? At least after it had gone on a while, right? No? 10 years? A hundred? A thousand?
Do you at least send them a note saying "hey, that other letter I sent you, you're reading it all wrong, this is what I meant?" No? You aren't too afraid of them to show up in person and correct them, though, huh? But, you never do?
See the problem?
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seedy3
Hey folks,
In reality the fundie christians, if given their way would force feed the belief in christ down everyone. And I'm sure if given the oportunity they would start the burnng times again as the Roman church had in the middle ages. Just take a listen to people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and other "popular" fundies. I even include the JW's in this fundie catagory, if it were not for local governments that limit their power, I'd take wagers they would exicute "sinners", just look at how they describe DF'ing, Your to treat the DF'd one as though they were dead (I really think they would be required to shoot them on the spot if they could).
That is the one thing Christians, who say they have complete "Faith" in thier God, don't seem to have is pactience to let their God do the judging, they always seem to want to take the "Law into their own hands" so to speak when it comes to religion and morals. I mean who the hell are they to say that God hates Homosexuals, Who are they to say that the prostitutes are major sinners, Who are they to say that if I don't accept your god I am damned to hell fire. All of that is, according to their own bible up to God himself, not them.
Seedy
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Francois
Abbadon, you bark up a fine tree but the wrong one. Neither the existence of God, nor the non-existence of God can be proven via the use of logic.
You challenge people to prove the existence of God.
How about you prove that no God exists?
francois
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greven
Francois,
Your question is equal to: Prove that no purple unicorns exist. Or prove that the government is not controlled by aliens. The point is: you can't prove a negative. The one that asserts something extraordinary (like purple unicorns or the existance of an invisible, all powerful entity in this case) should be able to provide extraordinary sound evidence for such an assertion.
Take for example this guy claiming something extraordinary:
Who says I am not under the special protection of God? -Adolf Hitler
Don't you think that he should provide positive evidence for such a bold claim before we accept it? Or do you think that we should accept this and can only dismiss it when proven to be wrong?
Some more quotes:
GrevenThere may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. Richard Dawkins
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Abaddon
Thanks greven, I'd assumed that was obvious as it comes up here regulary; proof requires evidence, if something exists, you have no evidence with which to prove it doesn't exist.
Isn't it great how no apologist thus far on this thread has even had a crack at this bit;
If the lack of proof of nature or desires of god is a root cause of religious conflict and infighting, let alone moral horrors as these pictures show, how can god witholding such proof be consistant with a loving and caring creator?
I won't hold my breath for the answer though, just wait for the inevitable 'I don't have to answer you questions!' avoidance. It's easy to believe in what you want if you close your eyes to things that don't fit in.
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hooberus
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:19-20