The Immorality of Losing

by DakotaRed 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    A very good article written by a 60's war protestor and left winger, who moved to Israel and seems to have grown up and now sees the world through different eyes.

    http://www.jewishworldreview.com/hillel/halkin_protest.asp

    The immorality of losing

    By Hillel Halkin

    http://www.jewishworldreview.com | An old friend in New York with whom we are still in contact after 33 years of living in Israel told my wife over the phone last week about the antiwar demonstration she had just marched in.

    "It was like the Sixties," she said excitedly. "Remember?"

    Of course we remembered. We had marched side-by-side with her and her first husband in a candlelight parade in Manhattan. "All we are saying/ is give peace a chance," we sang, linking arms as we walked up Broadway to protest the war in Vietnam.

    And now I am angry at her for being against an American attack on Iraq, and she is bewildered by my anger. Both of us, on some level, feel betrayed. I suppose she has the better case. After all, it's I who switched sides. It's I, too, who am no longer the American.

    And of course this has something to do with it. When I was one, I looked out at the world from its center. Vietnam was on the periphery and did not seem a place worth getting killed in or killing anyone for. Today I live on the periphery myself, in a small and vulnerable country faced with numerically superior enemies.

    For the moment, I'm quite able to defend myself. But I can do so only because of generous American aid, and I'm quite aware that if ever the day comes when this too is not enough, the only nation in the world that would even consider coming to my rescue is America - the same America that sought to rescue South Vietnam, and failed.

    Which is part of the reason I see that failure differently today. At the time I thought, like many Americans, that America deserved to fail in Vietnam. It had barged, arrogantly and stupidly, into a country it had no business being in, and it had caused that country's inhabitants enormous suffering by doing so.

    The North Vietnamese and their Viet Cong allies in South Vietnam may have been communists, but they were also freedom fighters trying to rid their homeland of foreign invaders. I sympathized with them. I was glad when America lost, and something in me exulted even at the pathetic pictures of its panicky evacuation of Saigon. The weak had vanquished the strong, who had been taught a terrible and well-earned lesson in the abuse of power.

    This is still the way many Americans think of the war in Vietnam. Would I be one of them had I not moved to Israel in 1970? A meaningless question, perhaps, like all such hypotheticals --- yet I would like to think that the answer is no.

    I didn't have to move to Israel to outgrow my left-wing sympathies, nor to acknowledge the brutal nature of the North Vietnamese regime that took over South Vietnam, from which hundreds of thousands of "boat people" risked (and often lost) their lives fleeing; or the genocidal barbarism of its Khmer Rouge ally in Cambodia, which perpetrated an Asian Holocaust on its own people.

    And I could have remained in America and realized that wherever in the world democratic, pro-American countries were compared with totalitarian, anti-American ones - South and North Korea, for example - the comparison was between prosperity and freedom on the one hand, and poverty, degradation and fear on the other.

    There was nothing intrinsically wrong about the American intervention in Vietnam. It was a terrible war and the American conduct of it was often reprehensible. And yet had America won, not only would the peoples of Indochina have been far better off, the world would have been a safer place.

    It might have been a world, for example, in which the Soviets thought twice about invading Afghanistan a few years later, thus setting off a chain of events that ended with the Taliban in power.

    The perspective of Israel is hardly necessary to grasp this, even if it does help one to imagine more clearly how many South Vietnamese must have felt toward America in the 1960s: grateful that it cared about them, insecure about its ultimate intentions, and fearful of being cruelly abandoned by it - as indeed they eventually were.

    It was not fighting the war in Vietnam that was immoral. It was losing it. Or rather, it was immoral to fight it if there was reason to believe it could not be won.

    Perhaps, given the situation in Vietnam in those years, in which a series of weak and corrupt governments in Saigon could not rally the support of their own people, this was indeed the case. But Americans like me who did not make the distinction between a war that deserved to be fought if it was winnable and a war that did not deserve to be fought at all helped, by their protests, to make it unwinnable.

    Those who still do not make this distinction are now marching blindly against a war in Iraq.

    If anyone has failed to learn the lesson of Vietnam, it is they. Nothing could be more justified than overthrowing the regime of Saddam Hussein, destroying all weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and helping the Iraqi people lead a better life that might be a model for others in the Middle East. The only thing unjustified about an attack on Iraq would be its failure to meet these goals.

    If there is reasonable room for doubt that America, for whatever reason, will be unable to stay the course, as it was unable to stay it in Vietnam, it would indeed be terribly wrong to begin it, for lives will have been lost for no good reason.

    But America's ability to stay the course will be influenced by many things, among them support for staying it in both America and the world.

    If the American public decides that its government is pursuing a wrong-headed and overly costly policy in which Europe refuses to join as a partner while sniping from the sidelines, the chances of this policy's success will be smaller, and those of America leaving before the job is done will be larger.

    The result might then be an Iraq freed of Saddam, but still run by thuggish generals or Islamist extremists who would rearm at the first opportunity.

    A war that ended this way would not have been a war worth fighting. It would indeed have been immoral --- and the immoralists would include, paradoxically, the very people who are now marching against it.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    I recommend the Pullitzer Prize winning book "A Bright Shining Lie" to give a different view of American involvement in Vietnam.

    According to a report commissioned by McNamara, "the reasons that justified sending American soldiers to wage a war in South Vietnam:

    70% - To avoid a humiliating US defeat (to our reputation as a guarantor)

    20% - To keep SVN (and the adjacent) territory from Chinese hands

    10% - To permit the people of SVN to enjoy a better, freer way of life"

    Thus, the primary "reason" for "going in" was not for the the sake of the people themselves; it was to protect what America saw as its own interests.

    Cheers, Ozzie

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    You may have hit on the real pivot for the iraq attack: Israel. Advising bush, there are many zionists masquerading as americans.

    The North Vietnamese and their Viet Cong allies in South Vietnam may have been communists, but they were also freedom fighters trying to rid their homeland of foreign invaders

    I can well understand this persons switch, because he is one of the invaders now. Totally understandable.

    SS

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    Ozzie, do yourself a favor and don't pay much attention to McNamara. He seems more inclined to try to save face and gain favor with the left today.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Funny, how all the war aplogetics dishonestly try to make it a black/white issue, an issue of going to war or not. Most people don't view it that way... most people view it as going to war after exhausting due process (60% in favour in UK and most of Europe), or as going to war without exhausting due process (60% against in UK and most of Europe).

    As there is no good reason why war cannot be delayed until after exhausting due process (a matter of months), the war apologists can't really fight this arguement at all, so they create a strawman arguement that they can win, simplifying it into 'war, or 'no war' scenario.

    Even more appaling than the general intellectual dishonesty of this is the fact lots of people are dumb enough to fall for it.

    1/ Saddam is a bad man.

    2/ He should go.

    3/ Wating a few months to go to war until the due process of weapons inspections has run its course will avoiding alienating many people in the developing world. It will mean they are more likely to trust the UN and the de facto world policeman than they might otherwise.

    4/ Going to war without exhausting due process will alienate people in the developing world. They will think that the USA cannot be trusted. This will cause MORE problems over time than delaying war against Saddam by a few months. Also, going to war now will mean the Ossama Bin-Ladin will be laughing... he WANTS alienation and distrust between the Arab world and the West, and it'll be really funny to him if the USA provide him with the propoganda he needs.

    I await with interest the explaination why it is neccesary to go to war NOW, instead of in a few months, and the explaination of how it is in the intrests of both world security and the USA's security to actively pursue a campaign that will increase alienation and resentment in many developing countries.

    No one has managed to explain this yet, they've just avoided even addressing these two key questions, and I have no real doubt this will happen again.

  • mattnoel
    mattnoel

    Funny, I have an Ex JW friend who was in the London one, she said it was absolutely amazing, she said that it felt like being at a convention for the love and friendship everyone showed but was a lot better !

  • mattnoel
    mattnoel

    When I say a lot better I mean she felt more love and the people were nicer there than the convention

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Dakota

    I agree though, that loosing wars, as far as history goes, is the worst sin. Mount a defensive war for a righteous cause and loose, henceforth, you're scum. Agitate for massacre, pillage, rape for purely selfish reasons, and win, you're a hero for at least a millenium.

    SS

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    SS: "'...Advising bush, there are many zionists masquerading as americans.""

    What does that mean? You got to be kidding, right?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Ti Chi

    Zionist, as i understand it, means pro state of israel. Here they are:

    1) Ari Fleischer, White House Press Secretary.

    2) Richard Perle, Chairman of the Pentagon Defense Policy Board, and strong advocate of war with Iraq, who was fired as an aide to Sen. H. Jackson in the 70s for allegedly passing classified documents to the Israeli embassy.

    3) Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of Defense, another hawk for war with close ties to the Israeli military.

    4) Rob't Satloff, National Security Advisor, formerly worked for the Jewish Lobby "think tank," the Institute for Near East Policy.

    5) Dov Zekheim, Under Secretary of Defense and Comptroller, holds dual Israeli-U.S. citizenship.

    6) Douglas Feith, Under Secretary of Defense and Policy Advisor at the Pentagon. A close associate of Perle, Feith is a member of the radical Zionist Organization of America. He is a lawyer whose law firm has only one overseas address -- in Israel! The firm's website boasts that it represents "Israeli armaments manufacturers."

    7) Elliot Abrams, National Security Advisor. Involved deeply in the Iran-Contra scandal, he arranged for Israel to sell U.S. weapons to Iran during its war with Iraq. He pled guilty to giving false information to congress, and was sentenced to 1 year probation plus community service. "Dubbya" granted him a full pardon after taking office.

    8) Marc Grossman, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, a left-over from that moral degenerate Clinton's administration. (No slouch himself in his eagerness to please those who are working hard to bring America to its knees, Clinton surpassed every president in history in appointing Zionist Jews to high government positions.)

    9) Richard Haass, Director of Policy Planning for the State Department, and Ambassador at Large, he is another strong advocate for war with Iraq.
    10) James Schlesinger, Pentagon Defense Policy Board, actively promotes war with Iraq.

    11) Robert Zoellick, U.S. Trade Representative, advocates invading Iraq, and setting up a puppet government as the U.S. did in Kosovo and Afghanistan.

    12) Mel Sembler, president of the Export - Import Bank, former chairman of the Republican National Finance Committee, and another hawk.

    13) Joshua Bolten, Bush's Chief Policy Advisor, and prominent in Jewish organizations.

    14) Steve Goldsmith, Senior Advisor to the President for Domestic Policy, a former mayor of Indianapolis, Indiana.

    15) Christopher Gersten, husband of Labor Secretary, Linda Chavez, who although a Catholic, acceded to Gersten's demands that they raise their children as Jews.

    16) Daniel Saul Goldin, head of NASA. Another holdover from the stainmaker's administration, he is often referred to in the Israeli media as "a true friend of Israel."

    17) Mark Weinberger, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury.

    18) Samuel Bodman, Deputy Secretary of Commerce.

    19) Bonnie Cohen, Under Secretary of State for Management.

    20) Ruth Davis, Director of Foreign Service Institute, which is responsible for training all Department of State staff, including ambassadors.

    21) Jay Lefkowitz, General Counsel of the Office of Budget and Management. 22) David Frum, White House Speech Writer.

    23) Brad Blakeman, President's scheduler for travel and meetings.

    24) Adam Goldman, White House Special Liaison to the Jewish Community! (What does it say, dear reader, that every one of our more recent presidents has had a "special liaison to the Jewish Community"? There are no "special liaisons" to any other ethnic group in America!)

    25) Henry Kissinger, that Zionist heavyweight and blameless "patriot," who's just been named (November 2002) to head the committee empanelled to find out (are you ready for this?) whether the U.S. was remiss in not anticipating the September 11th tragedy, and to unearth the causes for the attack! Can you imagine a panel headed by Henry Kissinger ever concluding that America's unstinting and hem-kissing support for Israel in her naked aggression in the Near and Mid East was the primary cause for Muslim hatred against the U.S., and that this hatred led directly to the terrorist war that is being waged against her? We don't think so.
    (Kissinger resigned almost immediately from the 9/11 commission citing "conflict of interest" as the reason. Others believe his resignation was forced because he was considered to be too "secretive" for the job, and that he had been involved in too many alleged criminal activities in the past -- including being cozy with Saddam Hussein, and facilitating Iraq's arms build-up -- making him subject to possible indictment by the International Criminal Court being set up in the Hague.)

    --------

    One or two of these may not hold those positions at this time.

    SS

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