As a JW, we were told that we had to be saved in order to live eternally. Do you still hope to live eternally, or did this dream fade away?
What does it take to live forever?
by JH 22 Replies latest jw friends
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Brummie
worthy of being saved
From what? lol
I would say no to both questions but thats ok with me.
Brummie
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Abaddon
Saved? Well, unless a fire has broken out downstairs, or someone has gone postal, I don't actually need saving.
The concept of some supernatural entity offering protection from harm is of course very old; one of the oldest. Whether is was a genuine attempt to explain the unknown ("Lightning go bang because skymen fight"), or a money making scheme ("Lightningman is my friend. Give me some auroch steak and he will be your friend too") is unknown, but the money-making and/or power accruing nature of being a special friend of supernatural entities quickly became obvious to people. Since then shamen, or priests (the terms are interchangable if you step back far enough) have always enjoyed high status in their 'tribe'.
Sometimes this was because of positive good they did; be it as a bereavment counciller ("Lu-og died hunting mammoth, is now in summer meadows with much food, fat babies and many women, do not cry"), or as a medic ("Ugo says take three leaves and mix with duck fat, rub in your wrist, winter pain go"), or some other useful social function.
However, very often bad things happened. Quite who the first person who had their brains blugeoned out because they believed in the wrong sort of god was is lost in history.
Also, rather than innocent attempts to explain the unknown, belief in supernatural entities developed; the concept of saving is one such example; "You are bad and doomed unless you buy my soap powder, I mean, accept x as your y".
Whether or not that's what YOU mean by saved, I don't know. All I know is that the person I see in the mirror has good and bad aspects to his personality, and one of the good ones is hating the idea of such a arbitary and eliteist worldview.
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crinklestein
Even though I was conned into this stupid religion I do have to say that, for a time, it quenched my spiritual thirst. There are a good number of things they teach that ARE scriptural but it encouraged me to read the Bible and so I did learn alot of things while there. It was when the contradictions started to be revealed through my expanding knowlege that I started to leave it. I still believe in everything that is in the REAL Bible but I have removed from my brain all of the Witness crap that is not scriptural. It took a little bit of re-reading the real bible in order to clear my head of thier festering crap but I did it.
I look at myself as being a spiritual person but more importantly a LOGICAL person. I believe in God and Jesus and I believe that there is no salvation except through him. No "New Light" can ever change that! I know the real truths from the bible and I know lies when I hear them. Expecially when they come from a group that is known for spreading spiritual lies either for entertaining or getting more money.
It infuriates me to watch people like the Southern Baptists rolling down the isles shouting out and sticking their hands in the air. I CAN'T STOMACH THAT!!! That is not scriptural. Their basic purpose of going to church on Sunday is to see who wins the "Who's got the biggest hat and flashiest clothing" contest. It is painfully obvious to me that they are there only for show and putting on of airs. It disgusts me.
It infuriates me to watch anything with a televangelist on it pimping the lord like He's his bitch. But it irritates me even more to watch the idiots in the audience.
I can't stomach it when, at these big conventions of crap, they start playing music and these idiots are swaying back and forth looking like they're on the verge of tears because they are just so moved. BS!!! They stick their arms in the air, tilt their heads back, close their eyes and put on the look of euphoria only so they can say "LOOK AT ME!!! I MUST BE MORE RELIGIOUS THAN YOU ARE BECAUSE I'M BEING MOVED!!! EVERYONE TAKE A GANDER AT MY SPIRITUAL GOODNESS!" And when it's on camera it gets even stronger. If I can see through this line of bull I am POSITIVE God can see it. Who do they think they're fooling? Do they hoenstly think that God is such a chump?
But I look at myself as being knowlegable in the Bible but certainly not an expert by any means. But I have enough actual knowlege of it so that I know what it is that I believe in and why I believe it and to know that what I belive in is grounded in scriptures. And I believe that I am living according to my beliefs and shall be saved because I do know that Jesus died for us all to be saved. And there is no changing that.
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TR
"interiorly?"
Is that a word?
Seriously,
Inside, I'm a silly,grumpy old fart that will die protecting his family. If god doesn't like that, then he can kiss my ass.
TR
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Undecided
It seems we need saving from the wrath of men more than the wrath of God, has anyone seen someone killed by God? Every few days a bunch are killed by some person who thinks he is doing God a favor and will be rewarded by a spiritual life somewhere for his faithfullness to God.
I think we are better served listening to our inner self than being influenced by some religious book or priest.
When I look into the mirror I see a person who has made mistakes but is trying to be a better person but doesn't really know what God is like or wants from him. He will judge me for what I am and if he doesn't like me he will do whatever he wishes.
Ken P.
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Francois
Crinklestein, I think you've got it. There is a certain satisfaction of spiritual thirst at first to be found in the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. However, this does not go very deep, nor last very long, so it becomes natural to ask why. And I've given an awful lot of thought to this question, as have you I feel sure.
What I observe is that the JWs have a religion that is essentially nothing new, a mere offshoot of the adventist movement of the middle/late 1800s, a religion appealing to logical interpretations of scripture (for the most part), a religion of motivation by fear: a religion of the mind. And while the mind is not the spirit, it is the gateway thereto. How else to approach the spirit other than through the mind? And that is just where the JWs, and in fact all religion comes to a halt.
Having made the maximum approach to the spirit through the mind, all religions of the mind have no technique, no information, no manner of passage from the mind to the spirit. There is no passageway revealed to make the leap from the one to the other.
And those techniques that have been discovered through other philosophies that actually do bridge that gap are rejected by the JWs as being false, even demonized. Thus do the adherents of the religions of the mind find themselves stuck with blind guides who cannot or will not think past the religion of the mind and enter the luminous religion of the spirit.
There is a great inconsistency in the JW rejection of those techniques that would usher the believer into the religion of the spirit, and it is this. Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be spirit-led; they claim to be the only "channel of communication" that God is using to speak to his true believers today. Fine.
What is the technique used by the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses to determine, to hear, to receive this spirit guideance? How do they know the will of god for his true believers today? If there is no describeable technique, then the organization is led by nothing more than the opinions of men. So again, how does the governing body determine the will of God?
Remember that the direct apprehension of the will of God is otherwise called mystical awareness. And the JWs have rejected mystical awareness as being of the devil. In fact, they have made a disfellowshipping offense of the practice of techniques that would lead to enhanced spiritual awareness: meditation chief among them. Mother of all corners the JWs have painted themselves into, what? They claim to be spirit led while at the same time denying the efficacy and legitimacy of the only known manner of enhancing approach to knowing the divine will.
Thus are we stuck with a religion of the mind on the brink of the chasm that separates the material from the spiritual and it is natural that people like yourself and so many others are left thirsting within literal sight of all the spiritual "water" that one could ever possibly desire. But the JWs, in denying known techniques of approach to the spiritual realm, are in effect preventing you from entering. They won't go themselves, and they won't allow you to try it for yourself. Does this sound familiar? Doesn't it sound just as Jesus described the behavior of the Pharisees? Does to me.
So that's my two cents. Does it make sense?
francois
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DJ
Do you see yourself as a good person worthy of being saved from the wrath of God?
I hate that question! It is a jw question. I thought the whole point of the new testament was to tell us that we are NOT worthy. That is why Christ died for us to cover us with his holy blood. It's a gift, for crying out loud. Hard to grasp for jw's. It is pride to believe that one can deserve....UNdeserved kindness aka grace.
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JamesThomas
Francois, I enjoyed your comments. Yes, they make sense. Eloquently said. Indeed, they have painted themselves in "the Mother of all corners." Francois wrote:
"What I observe is that the JWs have a religion that is essentially nothing new, a mere offshoot of the adventist movement of the middle/late 1800s, a religion appealing to logical interpretations of scripture (for the most part), a religion of motivation by fear: a religion of the mind."
I agree, but the "offshoot", I would say goes back to the Jews and their very tiny and limited, tribal ideas of God as a person, a warrior, a killer, a god of armies. Building a religion on a carnal-minded concept of God, leads only to disaster if it is not seen for what it is: a mind created, finite, anthropomorphized image, of what is formless, Infinite, and thus unknowable by the finite mind. To base ones life around the worship of a god (a most high) that punishes and kills and rewards a few, breeds greed and fear, the two things most destructive of spirituality. It is so true and so sad that the Witnesses discourage all deeper contemplation and meditation (the emptying of the minds limited ideas and concepts) in fear of the great Satan moving in. It is only when we get some inner inkling, some unspeakable sense that what the word "God" points to is not limited and is here now if we have but eyes to see, that we begin to embrace a "mystical", an intimate sense of living-truth. But what are the chances of this occurring when all day and night we are fed on empty words and ideas about a person god, out there, rather than directed to the meat of the Presence within? There is one scripture that I feel is the most important in the entire Bible as it gives clear direction to where we can find Truth. Luke 17:21, which says "the Kingdom is within". However, of all the Christian religions the Witnesses chose to change even this; so that now it uses the ambiguous phrase "in your midst". Which points us away from inner Truth, out into the carnal and material. Funny thing is: was it not the Pharisees with their tiny concepts of a god, that went to Jesus and ask "when" (in time), this "Kingdom" of which Jesus spoke would appear. And Jesus responded by saying it is not "Lo here; or Lo there" (in space and time) but within (our own consciousness). So, what do the Witnesses do but bastardize this important guidance and place our attention once again in space and time (that it may jive with their teaching). The Pharisees would applaud them. If the G.B. had consciously planned to direct people away from an intimate understanding of God/Truth, I can not imagine they could have done a better job than they have. As far as needing to be saved by Jesus: who can love a monster who will kill you if you don't? As far as I can tell, this is humanly impossible. Jesus, to me, was a man, a mystic who had intimate knowledge of the Infinity of God, and thus his Oneness with what he called the Father. Why do I need any mans acceptance, when what I seek is already here? JamesT JH, your original question seems to keep changing. It's quite confusing.
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heathen
What really cheezes me is their belief that in order to be saved requires blind obedience to an organization . What gall they do have to even suggest such a thing .